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Old 12-07-2008, 11:45 PM
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Lightbulb MilSim Event Certification

I've spent quite a bit of time reading this particular forum over the past couple weeks, and researching MilSim in general. The veteran crowd here on these boards seems to heavily favor a more serious approach to airsoft, yet this particular forum is largely dormant...and I wondered why. I was reading this thread about MilSim team certification, and it got me thinking. I believe the original poster had a good idea, but perhaps was approaching it from the wrong angle. Instead of teams or individuals being certified for MilSim, why not the events themselves?

The community here could elect a panel of MilSim experts of 5 or 7 people, preferably those that are team leaders with MilSim experience who would figure out a set of standards with input from the players. The standards would all have to be in place for an event to be considered a "Certified AO MilSim Event" and everyone would know what to expect going in. Players who aren't attracted to that style of play would be less likely to attend, and the spirit of the game could be maintained.

The idea behind having an event standard is so that individuals and teams are still free to practice their own set of guidelines independent of the system in place for events. For example, a certified MilSim event may require that each member of the team carry a radio for communication. Whereas a certified MilSim team may have required that each member use the standard military communication method and pass some sort of test to be approved.

Some examples that might be required for a certified MilSim event:

1. Realistic gear/camo is worn. No street clothes, etc.
2. Allow use of smoke and BB grenades.
3. Have a requirement for mission pass/fail objectives to determine a winner.
4. Standard medic/bleedout/respawn rules.
5. Must have a mission briefing period before gameplay begins.
6. Maintain squads/roles.
7. Use of props to encourage realism (fake bombs to disarm, etc).

In order for an event to be considered a "Certified AO MilSim Event", the event organizer would have to submit an application of sorts to the panel for approval before posting it to the community.

Thoughts?
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Old 12-08-2008, 12:03 AM
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Browncoat, while a good idea, your own definition of milsim will differ from others, which is why "milsim" is hard to pinpoint. Here is what I could answer to your example, just showing you how different things can be perceived from players to players.

1. street clothes is very normal in Africa/Europe/ south america warfare. Call it militia, guerilla, civilians, it is still very milsim to me.
2. smoke is not dependent of milsim at all. mag limitation could be though.
3. Who said an mission needs a winner? in real life, a mission is part of a much bigger scheme.
4. Well, milsim to me would involve "you are hit, you go home". who are we to say what milsim medic should be?
5. Mission briefing? many missions are decided on the fly, depending on the intel available.
6. who are we to say a true milsim fireteam shall only have one saw gunner?
What we, american, perceive as a chain of command, squads or even role can be VERY different for other countries. So does that mean a true milsim event would allow various perception or should milsim force/dictate one and only one vision of what a COC, squad or roles should be?
7. So jungle warfare without props is not milsim?

and we could go on and on about this
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Old 12-08-2008, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Browncoat View Post
I've spent quite a bit of time reading this particular forum over the past couple weeks, and researching MilSim in general. The veteran crowd here on these boards seems to heavily favor a more serious approach to airsoft, yet this particular forum is largely dormant...and I wondered why.

Because "veterans" want to play instead of discuss what defines a MILSIM game on internet forums.

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Originally Posted by Browncoat View Post

1. Realistic gear/camo is worn. No street clothes, etc.
2. Allow use of smoke and BB grenades.
3. Have a requirement for mission pass/fail objectives to determine a winner.
4. Standard medic/bleedout/respawn rules.
5. Must have a mission briefing period before gameplay begins.
6. Maintain squads/roles.
7. Use of props to encourage realism (fake bombs to disarm, etc).

In order for an event to be considered a "Certified AO MilSim Event", the event organizer would have to submit an application of sorts to the panel for approval before posting it to the community.

Every one of these listed is already enforced most of the time, even at mid-level milsim events, and sometimes at open plays. Radios are often required at a lot of events, too. Slapping a label on events will do nothing but that. Slap a label on it. It won't promote level of play, there will always be people who don't follow the rules.

The games are already reviewed/filtered by admins. If they're crap games, they aren't posted.

MILSIM games attract idiots and great players alike, simply because of the flash and show that MILSIM games have. They want bigger and better. Guaranteed, those little noobs that flock to the Open plays, will flock to MILSIM approved games, just to say that they've attended MILSIM approved games and that they're awesome for doing so.

I'd like to see 5-7 capable people raise their hands. I doubt that they would want it. And if they would, I doubt they'd want the position after a few months.

Improving play is one thing, but slapping a label on something to attempt to improve play is another. What comes with this label is already done. Let's just shut up, let organizers plan out their games like they want. If they're MILSIM, awesome. If they aren't, awesome. It's airsoft. We still have someplace to play, and a game to play. We still can choose what games we go to.
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Old 12-08-2008, 12:55 AM
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With the use of the search button I've found more then a dozen threads around the definition of milsim, the rules of milsim, how AO wants to play milsim, etc.

Before we get into this debate once again I'll state the conclusion of every other thread:

Use basic safety rules and host the event how you want it. Let the players decide if it is a milsim game or not.
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Old 12-08-2008, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post
Improving play is one thing, but slapping a label on something to attempt to improve play is another.

Then how do you propose the level of play be improved?

I would compare this project to ISO 9000 in the auto industry. As competitor parts suppliers all billed themselves as the "best", it became increasingly difficult to tell which companies were truly selling a superior product. So the industry developed a standard of excellence, and those who fulfilled certain requirements were designated as ISO Certified. Buyers then knew exactly what to expect from those companies, and knew their products were in fact superior because they met certain standards.

You can't raise the bar where no bar actually exists. That's what I'm talking about here...creating a standard of sorts so that the quality of MilSim can be measured and improve.
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Browncoat View Post
You can't raise the bar where no bar actually exists. That's what I'm talking about here...creating a standard of sorts so that the quality of MilSim can be measured and improve.
Ah, but there already is.

John Lu and BattleSim games present the bar for other milsim games to live up to.
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:04 AM
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Standards in the AO community usually come about when the need for them appears. Very, VERY few proposals for items meant to "better" certain aspects of events have gone into effect when based on forum concepts. Do not think I disagree with your idea. It just seems that if something will actually go into effect in this community, it is only when the need truely justifies it. There have been dozens upon dozens of great concepts on these forums that have never really gotten off the ground for a myraid if reasons. If a drastic change is needed, "life finds a way" IMO.
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
Ah, but there already is.

John Lu and BattleSim games present the bar for other milsim games to live up to.

Our focus is to create an immersive environment by creating rules and situations where more realistic rates of fire, ammo load out and causality play adds to the experience. We offer events to players who either wanted a more authentic Mil Sim experience or a chance to try something different. Our approach requires planning, organization and support as well as expertise, props and set up not practical in a traditional weekend event. We design the rules to reward squad based play and discourage "lone wolf" mentality. Our overall goal is to create a "movie like" experience with more depth and realism then a movie could provide. We want you to feel as if you are in the trenches!

Yes, and that's exactly what I'm talking about!
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:14 AM
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I believe this;

Please experience this level of event, or even such local ones as Team TAC's Safari Strike series (Or whatever one they come up with next.) And Team Striker's Blind Fury series of events before going any further with this. I'm not saying you have a bad idea, but I'm saying as someone that has hosted, and attends "Milsim" events nationally, that there is more or less unwritten rules between what is milsim and what is not.

Now, I ask - why should national events have to meet our standard of X, when they go above and beyond that? Can we not just trust the event organizer?

If Blade comes on and says "I'm hosting this event, it's a MilSim events" I believe him that he has his milsim rules. Now, those rules might differ from John Lu's rules, who might differ from the rules of Op. Pine Planes, and they may very well differ from Team TAC's milsim rules.

In the end though - I all trust them to be milsim, so why should I try to force anymore of a label on them?

I believe it is up to the organizer to want to push themselves for their own standards, and how far those standards have to go.

If you want the absolute realism, that is way different then your run of the mil, milsim event. Which, in turn is much different then an open play / paintsoft that we might see on an occasional weekend.

Once more, I believe it is up to the event organizer to host events with whatever rules they are comfortable with, can enforce, and make play reasonably fun. As someone that has done this in the past, you cannot tell me you want to hike from Point A to Point B to Point Z all day and never see trigger time. However, in real life that might be milsim. Nor can you tell me you want to defend building X the entire day, it might be a cool thought at first. However, I can tell you first hand sitting on top of the Prison at Irene 2 for an entire mission Sucked. Sure, it won my team points - but it didn't make the event very much fun. I think putting any standard on event organizers by an organization which is nothing more then a community at this point in time, is out of line. I believe, once more - if the players think its milsim, then it is. It's just what level do you want to take it to.
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Old 12-08-2008, 06:59 PM
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brown coat, i could see your intensions on this post but i think it'll be easier said then done. slapping "certified" in front of an event isnt going to make it any better. both major events ive been to, had and did everything you would consider a "certified" event would have. the only way i think it would work is if you did an invite only, knowing the people attending have experience and it would also depend on how big you wanted it to be. the larger it is the greater chance of people not showing up vs. smaller events where probably all will show but the missons/objectives wont be very indepth. anyways i could go on all day about this and im sure everyone else could to but im curious to see how you would make this work. shoot me a pm and i could give you some suggestions
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:12 PM
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I think having a panel to determine what is 'milsim' would be a supreme waste of veteran AO members' time. Time that could be spent creating uber cool scenarios and props for all of us to participate in and use in a milsim game.

I think currently it is easy enough for a person in AO to find out which airsoft games are more 'milsim' than others simply by asking veteran AO members. People on here will tell you which teams put on the quality events. Heck, you can just tell by how many posts are in the event thread before the event happens how seriously the people both planning the event and attending the event are taking it.

Plus there is one more important factor that has not been discussed: the fact that this determining body can only rate the planning before an event, not if a team can actually pull it off. There is a big difference between putting together a story line, creating rules, creating missions and actually creating a milsim environment that is mentally challenging and also entertaining for everyone involved. Managing things on the day of the event is huge and there are teams who have experience with this and teams that don't and you won't be able to rate that fairly based on your predefined characteristics of a milsim game.

Another point is that during some of the best milsim games there are twists and turns in the story line that only the organizers know about. This 'milsim' board would have to have those details in advance and since they are leading members of the airsoft community they would most likely be the leaders of some of the teams that participate in said events. If they already know what is going to change in the scenario then they may think of ways around the change before they hit the field and that takes away from the effect of putting the twist in the scenario to begin with.

Now having said all this having an official 'milsim' stamp would help up and coming teams that do not have a reputation for putting on events yet get a leg up when they show they put effort in before the event, but I think even this will be met with skepticism.

The best way for any product to succeed is through word of mouth. If you make such a great product that people talk about it for months or years after experiencing it then that will go far beyond having the thing stamped 'Certified'. Think of airsoft events as products that are being marketed the mass populace. People don't believe commercials that say X product has a 5 star rating as much as they believe their neighbor coming up to them and saying 'I bought one of those 5 years ago and it has been fantastic'
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:19 PM
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Quite frankly , I play airsoft for fun. I don't care if it's a "certified " milsim event or not.
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:38 PM
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I understand the general idea behind your post but after reading comments and going back over your post I guess I am a little lost. Granted this could be my lack of sleep but here are my questions to you.
-What is the problem you are noticing/wanting to solve?
-Why should this problem be solved?
-What are the positive effects of solving said problem?
-What are the negative effects of solving said problem?

Personally I have not really noticed a problem with MilSim that much. The only problem I have had while I was actively playing in AO was just the lack of them. I am not saying the other games that were not MilSim were not fun. Just I tend to want to play more MilSim games then open play style games. That is just what I prefer. But anyway back on point. I have not noticed games claiming to be something they are not. Most games that I track and follow on here seem to be straight forward. Hardly ever a question of what is expected out of people. I mean sure there are people who do not always read what is expected and show up not fully ready to play by what is expected. But hey that is their fault. Also if there is a question about what is expected from a player I feel that if have that question might be a good idea to just ask the event host.

So those are just my thoughts on some things. But I am sorry again I guess I am not fully tracking where there is a specific problem. Maybe I am not reading your post properly and that fully could be my fault. But I understand your post is based off of different posts. But I guess what is your main point of concern? What is the issue you want to see fixed?

So there we go and that's my 2
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:34 PM
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First, I want to address something Fox said: I have been to a large scale MilSim event, a few in fact. One of my favorite experiences was a 24 hour game that I attended in 1998, which was held in Pennsylvania. There were over 200 players, vehicles, night combat, the whole nine yards. Granted, this was paintball, and there are those who would diminish the value of that experience because it wasn't airsoft. That said, I do know what it's like to participate in a huge national event.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MinioN View Post
-What is the problem you are noticing/wanting to solve?

The problem that I'm noticing is that there seems to be a lot of debate over the definition of MilSim, and that there are often comments made along the lines of "such and such is okay, but it's not really MilSim". I've noticed that this particular part of the boards is very dormant, yet it seems have a very dedicated niche following, and be what a lot of players yearn for.

I dug up the old thread where someone proposed a team certification test for MilSim, and it was met with mixed reactions from the community. The gist of what I got from that thread was this: you can't define what MilSim is on an individual player level. So I thought it made more sense to have the events themselves meet certain generic criteria where all would consider it MilSim, and the individual or team would still be able to exercise their own personal ideas within that system.

Please don't misinterpret my intentions. I'm not saying that I think the events being held are sub-standard in any way. I just thought the community would be better served if an event was "certified" by criteria agreed upon by everyone, that people would know what to expect going in. This would eliminate comments and feelings like these:

- "It was more of a moderate/mid-level MilSim than a true MilSim event".
- "It wasn't really MilSim, there were kids there with clear plastic guns and Halo t-shirts".
- "That wasn't MilSim at all!"

Perhaps some of the initial examples I gave were a bit too generic. Let me try again:

1. Use of only mid or especially low cap magazines.
2. Should be based on a real campaign (Battle of the Bulge, etc).
3. Players must pre-register to attend. Player packs w/ objectives, maps, CoC, etc. must be sent out in advance.
4. Only period gear is allowed. No ACU camo in a WW2 MilSim for example.
5. Breaking CoC can land you in the brig. Maybe a 1 hour time out kind of thing to discourage the lone wolfs.
6. Must have clear cut mission objectives, goals, and awarded points for team style play and completed missions.
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Browncoat View Post
First, I want to address something Fox said: I have been to a large scale MilSim event, a few in fact. One of my favorite experiences was a 24 hour game that I attended in 1998, which was held in Pennsylvania. There were over 200 players, vehicles, night combat, the whole nine yards. Granted, this was paintball, and there are those who would diminish the value of that experience because it wasn't airsoft. That said, I do know what it's like to participate in a huge national event.
10 years and a completely different activity..

A lot changes, I believe your statement speaks for it's self.

When you attend Irene, or Northern Wind, or any of the major nationwide milsim events, then as I said before, Revisit this topic. You're still too new in airsoft to be bringing this up, and I believe the majority of the milsim veterans on these boards will agree with me.
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:04 PM
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I don't agree with you Fox. Sorry. I think that you've got a somewhat elitist attitude in that regard, as well as a few others. The amount of time that you've been a registered user on AirsoftOhio is in no way a reflection of how much knowledge or experience a person has in the sport of airsoft, or something similar like paintball. You need to remember that there are people out there playing airsoft, and playing milsim events, etc, that have NO CLUE that Airsoft Ohio even exists.

Anyway, I appreciate Browncoat's efforts in bringing up the discussion. The MILSIM discussion seems to happen every year or so, and different people have brought up many similar and valid points over the years. This thread is really no difference, and once again we are left to ponder the "what-if's" of the airsoft universe.

What we end up with is the reality that in the sport of airsoft, there is absolutely NO ruling or governing body. There is no airsoft police force that watches over every event. There are no Official US or State government agencies that watchdog airsoft guns, retailers, events, etc.

The sport of airsoft has always been self-policing in a sense. In helping start Airsoft Ohio in 2001, it was in my interest to help establish safety rules and limitations that I felt were within the widest possibly realm of flexablility and playability, while offering the widest margin for safety, and error.

Unfortunately, when it comes to hosting an event... honestly guys, the sky is the limit. One event organizer's view of what is Milsim may be completely different than another's. This is also compiled by the fact that there is absolutely no governing authority which would serve to provide the above mentioned certifications. And in this case, any certification would be worth about as much as the paper it was written on.

For those of you who remember back in AO's younger days, and the days of ARRCO (Airsoft Rules & Regulations Committee of Ohio) and it's ultimate failure, it's obvious that there is such wide diversity in the sport that any attempt to subjugate the people who play airsoft will only result in pissing those people off. Those who might claim to have better events because they meet an Ohio Milsim Certification may or may not have better events. Then suddenly some random person out of left field hosts a Milsim event with actual military vehicles, etc, because they might have some military contacts, etc. Who knows. In the end, the people who were part of ARRCO basically got pissed off at each other because of FPS limits or because people outside the state were lobbying for change in Ohio, or many other reasons. People disagreed, got pissed off, and ARRCO had a meltdown and now no longer exists. The same disagreements that plagued ARRCO would plague a finite definitely of Milsim as well. Why? Well, first of all, the dedicated SPORT of Airsoft is inherently about Milsim, in that the majority of dedicated airsofters want to take part in military-style simulations. A BIG part of the sport is the "dress up and look pretty" aspect. See, we've got pretty boys like Fox who are complete gear whores, who own authentic gear and look good on the field. On the other end of the spectrum are the people with the clear plastic guns and civilian clothing who might just be getting into the sport and are trying it out.

Now, I'm not about to define what should and what shouldn't constitute an Official Milsim event because someone is new or can't afford a nicer gun or camoflage gear, boots and a tac vest or chest rig. Why? Because in officially doing so, you only serve to alienate those new players you hope to attract. Of course here's the part with the elitists will scream "WE DON'T WANT TO ATTRACT NEW PLAYERS!!!". Well, I disagree with those screamers too. People come, people go, new blood in, old blood moves on to other things. Airsoft will always have the small percentage of players who will be around for a long time, but the bulk of airsofters are going to be somewhat seasonal. They're going to hang around for maybe a year or two, and also move on to new things. Airsoft will always need new players because we're always going to lose players.

Now, as I said before, if John Lu wants to go out and charge $200 bucks per game for you to be able to play on a military base somewhere, then by all means, he's got the right to establish whatever the hell rules he wants in order to make his events a success. The same goes for any other person who wants to charge people for an event. Whether it's Blind Fury, Safari Strike, Bioshock, Boiling Point, or whatever, an event host can establish whatever rules they want, and call their event any name they want, and can even throw around the Milsim word too. It's their right to do what they want. You might have events that require people to dress properly in military gear and carry only lowcaps. If you don't meet those standards, you won't be allowed to play. You might also see an event that allows anyone to attend with no restrictions, but the missions and scenarios might be heavily based in military lore or history, and might follow a heavy milsim theme otherwise. Which type of event is actually Milsim though? And who honestly has the right to say whether it is or isn't?

The bottom line is that unless AO or some kind of Ohio Airsoft Standards Commission officially becomes a non-profit organization with an established leadership or if something happens that brings government requirements to our sport, all of this talk about certifications and such is somewhat meaningless. I'm not saying you have a bad idea, because honestly, it would be good to certify events as being officially Milsim or not, but I just don't see it happening in the immediate or forseeable future.

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Old 12-08-2008, 11:33 PM
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I don't agree with you Fox. Sorry. I think that you've got a somewhat elitist attitude in that regard, as well as a few others. The amount of time that you've been a registered user on AirsoftOhio is in no way a reflection of how much knowledge or experience a person has in the sport of airsoft, or something similar like paintball. You need to remember that there are people out there playing airsoft, and playing milsim events, etc, that have NO CLUE that Airsoft Ohio even exists.
Indeed I very well do. And I agree that there are people out there that play airsoft and the like that, do not know that AO exists.

I still think though, experiencing an event like Irene, or Op. Pine Planes, or Recondo School really shows you the upper end of milsim. Each for their own reasons, Irene for the settings and pyro. Pine Planes for the setting and Missions, Recondo School for the load out and missions.

I believe also in the past 10 years, Milsim from 1998 is going to be much different then milsim in 2008. Technology has changed. 10 years ago a site like Zuessman would be completely a dream to anyone trying to host an event. Now, some of us have been there 3 times for airsoft related events, and even more outside of that. Getting caught up with things first, then posting this idea is all I ask. I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, I'm saying this:

1. Be thoughtful of ideas that are suggested before posting ideas such as this. You may know about milsim, but that doesn't mean you know about airsoft and the upper levels of milsim in airsoft.

2. Be careful about making event organizers jump through hoops. It's hard enough to host an event as it is right now, and have people show up. Making event organizers get milsim approved, or this approved, etc. Just honestly would add more of a headache. If I made a post tomorrow that I'm going to host a milsim event, and told it's not milsim until X person approves it, I'll tell them to fly a kite and post it elsewhere. However, I believe right now if I posted that event, every other veteran would believe me that I'm hosting a milsim event.

As you said later in your own post, AO is a community, not some place to tell people what to do. We tried that, it didn't work. Lets not get into that again.
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:47 AM
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The reason the milsim board is dormant is because there is only so much you can say about milsim...

As someone who is part of a team that hosts events, I see no reason for this. It is already a big PITA to host an event, we make zero money from it (we actually lose money doing it..), but we do it because we realize that if no one was hosting events, we wouldn't have anywhere to play.

We don't need anything to further burden the event hosts, we should be happy they are hosting at all.

Reading through the previous milsim cert thread, I see nothing new in this thread. All of the arguments against "milsim team certification" can be made against "milsim event certification".

Quote:
I don't agree with you Fox. Sorry. I think that you've got a somewhat elitist attitude in that regard, as well as a few others. The amount of time that you've been a registered user on AirsoftOhio is in no way a reflection of how much knowledge or experience a person has in the sport of airsoft, or something similar like paintball. You need to remember that there are people out there playing airsoft, and playing milsim events, etc, that have NO CLUE that Airsoft Ohio even exists.
In fairness to Fox, Browncoat has been very upfront that he is new to airsoft and when he created his account here a few weeks ago he had not yet attended an airsoft event. So what I think Fox was trying to say was that without any knowledge of how AO event hosts run their events, he thinks it is a bit presumptuous to suggest such a change in our event hosting practices.

I can't say I would argue with that, the old cliche is "don't knock something until you try it."
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
However, I believe right now if I posted that event, every other veteran would believe me that I'm hosting a milsim event.

Would I? Would anyone outside of AO? I also find it hard to believe that every veteran would feel the same...the wide ranges of opinions on this topic has proven that. That's kind of the point of this discussion. Fox is hosting a MilSim event, which Bob thinks is great, but Bill doesn't think it fits his definition of MilSim. Bill prefers the events held by Browncoat, but Bob didn't really like the structure of the last one. This isn't a shot at you personally, Fox, or your events. It just kind of goes along with the premise of this thread.

I don't need to experience anyone's definition of what constitutes MilSim or "upper level MilSim" to have my own ideas and opinions on it. Why? Because then the next guy can say that I haven't experienced his definition of a MilSim event, and so on. MilSim is more about atmosphere and the spirit of the game than it is about the gear or setting being used. Maybe that's why this is such a difficult topic, and one that keeps coming up. It's not something tangible.

This concept is more along the lines of: this is how we, the players have defined core elements of MilSim, and this event is certified to contain those elements.

It's not meant to say that no one can call their event MilSim unless it has some sort of seal of approval, or that the event is somehow of lesser quality. It's not meant to make organizers jump through hoops or exclude them in any way. It is meant to say that if an event organizer wants to attract a hardcore MilSim niche to his event, then this is what the community expects to see. It's meant to improve the overall quality of an event by providing what the MilSim crowd wants. For example:

Event I - Held by a field/team with a prior reputation for holding good MilSim events. Not billed as a certified event. Some players attending feel that it is up to snuff, others feel it may have been lacking in a few areas.

Event II - Held by a field/team will little to no prior MilSim reputation, but is billed as a certified event. Players will know before attending what they can expect to see there.

Ultimately, I'm saying this is a quality issue. As was mentioned earlier, there are going to be newbs who show up just for the sake of saying they attended a MilSim event. That's why I mentioned that pre-registering should be a requirement to attend a certified event. Sure there will still be those kinds of players attending, but if they don't like the experience, I think they would be less likely to attend another one. Or maybe in reading what all entails a certified event, the curious player might say "that's not for me" and not attend at all.

Because of the nature of this topic, I'm starting to realize why it keeps coming up, and why it never really goes anywhere. The question "What is MilSim?" isn't really something that can be defined and agreed upon by all. However, I do believe that if someone from BattleSim suddenly showed up on the boards and said they'd like to help set something up like this, it might be met with a different response. Maybe the whole thing is like solar powered cars...it looks good on paper, but isn't very practical.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:23 AM
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Everyone has great ideas until its time to actually execute them. Then you find out if people have the ability to make things happen or if they have the grasp on how to get others to want to do that.

Right now you have a diverse group of airsofters all over the US who have very different views on how airsoft should be.

Airsoft is a hobby to enjoy in the way you want to enjoy it. The only right and wrong way is with regards to safety and responsibility of the players on the field.

I had a great idea to throw fireworks at n00b players who refused to leave their bunkered positions. Yes, throwing it inside their bunkers did move them out. But it also made them wet their pants and cry to their mommy that the big bad Texx threw a nasty loud thing at them. Then their mommy got angry, I offered to cox her, and now those n00bs call me "daddy."

The moral of the story is, throwing pyro at a n00b who won't leave his bunker SEEMS like a good idea. But until you actually hit on their mom, you don't know what she'll do on the first date. And some n00bs have HAWT moms who just need good lovin...

that's my 2 cents...

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Last edited by Texx; 12-09-2008 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Browncoat View Post
Would I? Would anyone outside of AO? I also find it hard to believe that every veteran would feel the same...the wide ranges of opinions on this topic has proven that. That's kind of the point of this discussion. Fox is hosting a MilSim event, which Bob thinks is great, but Bill doesn't think it fits his definition of MilSim. Bill prefers the events held by Browncoat, but Bob didn't really like the structure of the last one. This isn't a shot at you personally, Fox, or your events. It just kind of goes along with the premise of this thread.
Simply networking. If I attend Team TAC's and Team Striker's Events, they will in turn attend my event, because I know them personally, I am friends with them - friends help each other out. When these large, well know teams make a point to go to my event, people that may not know me, but know those teams, go to my event.

Same goes with out of state events. If I go to Op. Irene and meet some guys from Kentucky, trade info, or perhaps I even post on their boards - they know me. I tell them I'm hosting an event, they show up to it and have fun, spread the word.

When I hosted Distant Horizon 3+ years ago, I had 90 people show up in November. That was a hell of a game, and I got alot of good feed back from it. And, a lot of people want me to hold another event, which might be brewing. However, it takes alot of time and effort to set up a milsim even of that scale. People think we made money, but in reality after field costs, prop costs, etc.. we lost money. However, my team had fun and the people at the event loved it, so it's all good.

Not to be mean, but I don't really care if every newbie at AO who wants to play a milsim event comes or not. I have my crowd of people I market towards because we all fall in line with the same thoughts of milsim. We all play at the same events and we all know what is fun. If new people want to come, well, so be it. Some might like it, some might not. Some people will complain because of my FPS rules, or Age rules, or even my Milsim rules. Well, ok, I'm not forcing you to come to my event. It's up to the end player.

My goal as an organizer is simple, appeal to a certain crowd by using a certain set of rules. I know these rules because it's what I play. You've played at smaller events, conquest and the like. It's a good start - I'm just *trying* to remind you that there is alot more out there, please experience it before you try to change things.

Quote:
I don't need to experience anyone's definition of what constitutes MilSim or "upper level MilSim" to have my own ideas and opinions on it. Why? Because then the next guy can say that I haven't experienced his definition of a MilSim event, and so on. MilSim is more about atmosphere and the spirit of the game than it is about the gear or setting being used. Maybe that's why this is such a difficult topic, and one that keeps coming up. It's not something tangible.
On the opposite.. it is very much about the gear and the settings used. Why do you think the Strikers have invested tens of thousands of dollars into their field to build it up? Why would they change a perfectly good woods field.. into putting buildings up and improving the field, if the setting being used wasn't important? If we were all running around as you described it "In our duct taped tennis shoes and 200$ guns" where is the milsim in that? I'm not opposing what you said that you can have fun. However, that's not milsim. And a Milsim event such as that, I would probably leave because that is not milsim, that is an open play. Which is why milsim events have uniform rules instead of wearing arm bands. Basic equipment rules, etc. To keep it realistic. It's also why we've banned high caps from milsim, to force reloading, and to keep play from bogging down because 1 person has an Mp5 with several drum mags. It also keeps it realistic, because if you want to carry with you 30 magazines, you have to have the gear to carry that many magazines. Some events even have limits on the number of magazines you can carry, to keep it realistic.

If you look at battlesim games, they even take it to the next level. Requiring your gear to be an impression from a group. This means everything should be what it really was.

I've tried be nice about, but I'll just be blunt because your last statement leads to it: You're trying to fix a system that isn't broken, because you have no experience in it.

Quote:
It's not meant to say that no one can call their event MilSim unless it has some sort of seal of approval, or that the event is somehow of lesser quality. It's not meant to make organizers jump through hoops or exclude them in any way. It is meant to say that if an event organizer wants to attract a hardcore MilSim niche to his event, then this is what the community expects to see. It's meant to improve the overall quality of an event by providing what the MilSim crowd wants. For example:

Event I - Held by a field/team with a prior reputation for holding good MilSim events. Not billed as a certified event. Some players attending feel that it is up to snuff, others feel it may have been lacking in a few areas.

Event II - Held by a field/team will little to no prior MilSim reputation, but is billed as a certified event. Players will know before attending what they can expect to see there.
Ok lets reverse this real quick.

Event III is held by a new team, no prior milsim rep, however billed as a certified event. They completely blow it, have no organization what so ever to their event, although it looks fantastic on paper. Teams are off balance, their is no on the field direction, missions are completed by one side in no time.

What happens now? Your certification just went out the window, why should I ever trust it again?

I believe it goes back to your original statement of why you should trust me to hold a milsim event, or anyone for that matter, which I'll list my reasons to have credibility:

1. I've hosted prior milsim events in the past.
2. I've attended National milsim events, and attend them yearly. (Irene was an exception this year because of my leg.)
3. I have a rather large, well known airsoft team to back me up.
4. Many other teams that are larger, and even more well known then mine, support me.

I see those as being far greater then any certification possible.

Quote:
Ultimately, I'm saying this is a quality issue. As was mentioned earlier, there are going to be newbs who show up just for the sake of saying they attended a MilSim event. That's why I mentioned that pre-registering should be a requirement to attend a certified event. Sure there will still be those kinds of players attending, but if they don't like the experience, I think they would be less likely to attend another one. Or maybe in reading what all entails a certified event, the curious player might say "that's not for me" and not attend at all.
To be honest, chances of me attending someones event that I've never played side by side, or against, is very low. If I don't know the person, or the team, with how small of a community this is right now - I see no reason to go to that event. Just the same as with John Lu events and the like. I give huge credit and kudo's to Team Tac and the Strikers to going to Irene I, however I did not. Why? Well, at the time I was only 17 - required 18 to go. But, the main reason was - I didn't see the need to drive to georgia to go to that event. However, the next year I went to Irene II because I heard very positive feed back about it.

Same goes with most new events. The first one will be hard to get off the ground - however if you do it right, more people will come. Look at Blade's Blind Fury series. The first one was what.. maybe 90-100 people? Now last years was 3 times that? Airsoft is growing, the number of events is growing as well.

However, the number of true milsim events in Ohio, in my opinion is going down. This is the part where I agree this is a good idea in theory. I would like to see a minimum standard of "what is milsim" for Ohio, but logically I see no way to implement it with out a club forming. Which might not be a terrible idea, however very expensive and also in turn, very risky due to the law suits and the multiple gray areas that cross with airsoft. (Silencers, orange tips, trade marks, and all the other fun bits of airsoft we like to sweep under the door mat.)

I believe you nailed it on the head when you said it looks good on paper, because it is a concept that does look good on paper. But with out more of an enforcement ability, then there is no such way we can do it. We can lay out minimum standards to post your event on airsoft ohio, but that's about it. And for me as an event organizer looking at it, I just wouldn't care. That would kill the point of it, and airsoft ohio if we put restrictions on events, minus the basic legal ramifications of property ownership, etc.


To go to your final question, what is MilSim, I believe the only answer that is out there - whether it comes from Me, Battlesim, John Lu, Or Blade - it's what you think milsim is.

To you, it seems like the spirit of the game.

To me, It's running around zuessman with 300 other people, battling for control of the city. While, I might still have your spirit of the game, it's also important to me that each of us are dressed as soldiers, with the proper equipment. (It also really helps when the sound of battle around you is real. Explosives, vehicles, RPG's, the yelling of war, and the chaos of civilians with in it.)

But, that's me. I'm not trying to be mean here at all, or elitist. I'm just asking you to try things before attempting to come up with something of this scale. Something like this has been kicked around before, and it's a very complex subject. Stick around for the next year, come to some major events and play side by side with me, perhaps we'll both learn some things.

Cheers
Fox.
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:58 PM
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Another important point to remember is, we can talk about MILSIM certification of hosted games all we want. But what about the players involved? It's the players themselves that add the total 'experience' of MILSIM to the game. Or not. It's not just about the game rules, format, and all the other stuff hosts include in their games.

I can't tell you how many quote-unquote "MILSIM" games I've been to, that have been ruined by players not adapting to the MILSIM aspects of it. I mean, you can have all the MILSIM elements you want (strict BDU, COC, ROE, limited loadout, squads, communication, mission objectives, vehicles, pyro, blah blah blah) and still players will quickly disperse into lone wolves, squads not working together, chain of command violated, radio communication breakdown, lost control of platoon, ROE broken, not calling hits, players pulling out high caps, players leaving in middle of game, etc., etc.

So until we can get players attending a MILSIM game to actually adhere to and play MILSIM, then I think this discussion is moot.

Last edited by Torque; 12-09-2008 at 10:17 PM.
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