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  #26  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Red View Post
Bingo. I am too. I just want to apply tactics to fields/environments. Give me lots of action, keep it simple. Sometimes I'll want to roleplay and mess around, maybe 1-2 times a year, but now I just want to go shoot stuff.

Milsim is boring, and I don't get any title or dress blues or awesome life experience or pay for doing it.
My thing is that I get a very limited number of days to actually play. When those days hit, I'll never know. With two kids and a demanding job, it's tough to make it out. The last milsim game I went to, saw my squad of middle aged guys that never get to play either, guard a bomb site or something about 1/4 mile from a living soul for about 2 hours. This is after spending the entire morning guarding an "ammo dump site". I spent $45 to play, probably the same in gas, and an entire saturday to sit on my rear and look at some old oil tanks. I'm not blaming the coordinators 100% but I'd much rather get my money's worth.
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:27 PM
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^ I understand where you are coming from there. Ideally the objective that you are guarding is of importance to the other team, thus you should have seen more contact. The problem is that by pushing military operations, but not having the command and control, you are literally shooting yourself in the foot. I mean at MAM, it is easy to fight stagnate battles and it turns into WWI, because no one can manoeuvre. So what happens is we have milsims, that are more or less open plays, with more storyline and roleplaying elements, but the objectives are so much harder to achieve that you get boring missions. Also, if the CO had realized/been made aware, they should have rotated your squad with another squad that had been in heavy contact and needed a break.

I think that it is the way we play milsim games that's the problem. I know I'm talking to a brick wall here (ie, AO doesn't like change), but I know there is a different way to play milsims, with organic Op4, more CnC, that will allow a better flowing game and a more realistic simulation without Texx going to your parents house, lol.
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  #28  
Old 02-13-2012, 02:00 PM
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Moses

My personal feelings about the number of magizines you can carry is a bit different than yours. Let me explain.

This is all coming from my 4 years serving in the Army as a 11B infantryman. Along with my deployments to Iraq and Astan

There is the military's "Standard" combat load and then there is the "Mission" combat load.
Here's the difference. The "standard" combat load is just that, the standard. It is the absolute minimum amount of ammunition the a soldier can have on his person while performing combat operations.

Then you have the "Mission" combat load. This is what realy matters. The MCL is used to augment your SCL. With the MCL you carry however much ammunition that you or your superiors feel is nessisary to safely complete the mission. In reality if you are rolling out and expecting contact ( like we do in airsoft, otherwise what's the point) you do not carry only 7 magizines. As most of us know from airsoft ammunition goes fast. In real life it goes even faster. In Astan I carried 10-12 mags 2 frags and a white smoke gernade on my person. Then in the truck I had an additional 6 magizines in a bandolier that I could grab along with a few more thrown about.

So what I am saying is that I'm the military the soldier carries an absolute minimum of 7 magizines but can generaly carry as many as he wants or feels he needs.
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  #29  
Old 02-13-2012, 02:16 PM
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so the weight and the space required to carry the real magazines are what is stopping a soldier to bring even more magazines. correct?

If so, the problem with airsoft are that the weight and space are not a true issue for most players. You can easily carry 10k rounds and 20 mags before feeling the weight of them. That is why organizers willing to make it more realistic will usually try to limit the number of mags randomly and the numbers of rounds at about 3:1 ratio, all this just for the sake of trying to give a sense of "limitation", forcing the players to be smarter about their loadouts and their trigger pulls rather than just letting it all out without limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Specter357(2nd) View Post
Moses

My personal feelings about the number of magizines you can carry is a bit different than yours. Let me explain.

This is all coming from my 4 years serving in the Army as a 11B infantryman. Along with my deployments to Iraq and Astan

There is the military's "Standard" combat load and then there is the "Mission" combat load.
Here's the difference. The "standard" combat load is just that, the standard. It is the absolute minimum amount of ammunition the a soldier can have on his person while performing combat operations.

Then you have the "Mission" combat load. This is what realy matters. The MCL is used to augment your SCL. With the MCL you carry however much ammunition that you or your superiors feel is nessisary to safely complete the mission. In reality if you are rolling out and expecting contact ( like we do in airsoft, otherwise what's the point) you do not carry only 7 magizines. As most of us know from airsoft ammunition goes fast. In real life it goes even faster. In Astan I carried 10-12 mags 2 frags and a white smoke gernade on my person. Then in the truck I had an additional 6 magizines in a bandolier that I could grab along with a few more thrown about.

So what I am saying is that I'm the military the soldier carries an absolute minimum of 7 magizines but can generaly carry as many as he wants or feels he needs.
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  #30  
Old 02-13-2012, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 79stang View Post
^ I understand where you are coming from there. Ideally the objective that you are guarding is of importance to the other team, thus you should have seen more contact. The problem is that by pushing military operations, but not having the command and control, you are literally shooting yourself in the foot. I mean at MAM, it is easy to fight stagnate battles and it turns into WWI, because no one can manoeuvre. So what happens is we have milsims, that are more or less open plays, with more storyline and roleplaying elements, but the objectives are so much harder to achieve that you get boring missions. Also, if the CO had realized/been made aware, they should have rotated your squad with another squad that had been in heavy contact and needed a break.

I think that it is the way we play milsim games that's the problem. I know I'm talking to a brick wall here (ie, AO doesn't like change), but I know there is a different way to play milsims, with organic Op4, more CnC, that will allow a better flowing game and a more realistic simulation without Texx going to your parents house, lol.
MAM games can be difficult but in reality, they are some of the better ones I've played in. Yes I have played in some WWI trench games that give no ground at all but others with objectives that encourage movement.

The one's that suck is where you have objectives that really don't mean anything and force squads to make a long trek to a remote location that will never be the focus of the opposing team.

If you want to encourage movement, give a penalty to a team that refuses to do so. This can be done by increasing bleed out times or other means. Put strict and short time limits on objectives. Play more siege games like we did at the ruins. Ultimately, none of us are ever going to get exactly what we want in a large scale game. I don't have the time and talent to organize one so it's up to guys like you. And so far, I'm always happy to play at MAM.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:33 PM
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Thanks Spidey, we try. I like the idea of penalties for the camping mentality. We have done the X objective gives you Y benefit and it worked well.
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  #32  
Old 02-13-2012, 06:41 PM
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Blade

I vaguely remember when AO adopted that mindset a few years back. I remember discussions years ago and the argument for 3:1 ratio was something like; bullets are more accurate, travel further and have more penetration. So to make up for it you get around 600-700 rounds. Which once again is a totally random number that we came up with, with nothing to back it up. Because of course we cannot replicate real ammunition.

I just think 7 is dumb with nothing to realy back it up. I would think that 14 is a more realilistic number. I carried 14 systema PTWS mags at lightning strike II and 10-11 at Irene 9.

As for carrying extra BBs I don't care ether way as long as I don't have to walk to BFE to reload.

Just my thoughts.
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  #33  
Old 02-13-2012, 08:39 PM
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My take on mag restrictions:
I always carry exactly 7 mags for my primary. Six on my vest and one in the gun. It fits and works for me. I rarely run out and I have used that load out for going on 5 years now. It works. Some times I carry speed loaders to avoid the walk back to the car. Sometimes I don't.

High caps are dumb. Friends don't let friends mup drum mags on MP5s. However, if you want to lug a ton of midcaps or loose ammo around then by all means do it, who cares? I say live and let lug.

My take on FA vs SA:

95% of the time I engage enemies with semi auto. I played a lot of indoor games in my "formative years" so I got used to it. That said on "patrols" I have the switch on rock and roll. I have found its nice to have that extra little something if we get caught with our pants down. The "oh no there are bad guys... make them duck while sprinting to cover" moments. After I get to cover I flip it back to semi and continue killing tan one bb per squeeze.

If you want to spray and pray, go ahead. As long as you are not being unsafe and bonus balling folks to be a tool bag, who cares? Those of us with better trigger discipline can stick to semi and not have to reload as often.

My take on Milsim:
I think it was Loc (or was it EH? I don't remember...) who put it best "Airsoft is LARPing with an denial problem" (or something like that). It will never be half a realistic as some people want.

My take on Airsoft:
Its a game. If it stops being fun because you worry to much about "realism" or other sillyness then you have failed at your hobby and should do something else.
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  #34  
Old 02-13-2012, 08:47 PM
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Bird strike

You have a few very few very good points in there. I love the LARPing comment.
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  #35  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:27 PM
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Specter's right about the difference in loadouts. Most people who carry 6 mags are pogs while grunts carry what they need. And you will never have a correct ratio of bbs to live rounds ever. That argument is just ridiculous.

I think threads like this are silly. If you are too hot and bothered over milsim, just don't attend milsim. Nobody is forcing you to go. If you just want to play speedball, stick to open plays. If you want missions with objectives and organization, go to milsim. Its pretty doggon easy. If you want to whine about it and discuss absurd aspects, make a thread about it on AO.
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  #36  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
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If you want to whine about it and discuss absurd aspects, make a thread about it on AO.
Quoted for awesome...
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  #37  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:30 PM
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I agree Dboy

Birdstrike, I agree with what you said to a point. I know that airsoft will never be 100% realistic. Also there are some elements about the real military that suck. For instance would you like to spend 24hrs filling out paper work so you can deploy to a combat zone (ie a field)? Hell no. Then there are elements that are realistic, gear, look of the guns, tactics, etc. Airsoft is a game and it should be fun, but fun is hard to define for many different people (IE what is fun for someone, may not be fun for someone else). Since it is we (a community) who decide what style and how deep we want to go down the rabbit hole, so to speak, is up to us. We could have a game where you get killed once and then you go home for the day, but I dont think that would be too much fun. I also think that everyone running around with P90 support guns is also not fun. For me, the fun zone is somewhere in the middle and I like my milsim more on the realistic side.

So think of this as choosing how you like your steaks. Rare is open play and done is the real military. I think I am a medium well kinda guy. Food for thought.
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  #38  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:48 PM
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As much as I would like to allow people to carry as many mags as they want, what's to stop someone from carrying 22, like I did as the squads automatic rifleman? Absolutely nothing. That's what. You said it yourself, ammo goes fast in airsoft and even faster in real life. What better way to promote ammo conservation than with a limited supply?

I'm trying to hold back as much information as I can, but once the story is out, it will make more sense as to why the loadout is 6+1. Think of it like this. If you've been patrolling the same streets for years with less action than having a rock thrown at you, would you still carry 14 magazines on a daily basis? Probably not.
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  #39  
Old 02-27-2012, 09:35 AM
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don't forget the hours of sitting around base waiting for orders.
Agreed. I think when one squad comes back to base for some reason, they should relieve the already defending squad.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:45 PM
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OP East Wind is way to damn MILSIM. Hardly anyone actually shoots in that event...and a lot of people aren't even carrying batteries in their guns.
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  #41  
Old 02-27-2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post
Bingo. I am too. I just want to apply tactics to fields/environments. Give me lots of action, keep it simple. Sometimes I'll want to roleplay and mess around, maybe 1-2 times a year, but now I just want to go shoot stuff.

Milsim is boring, and I don't get any title or dress blues or awesome life experience or pay for doing it.
I've been waiting for someone to catch on...
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  #42  
Old 03-10-2012, 01:02 PM
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I think a more rigorous and realistic MILSIM would be a great idea to a certain point but there is a point where MILSIM is just TOO MILSIM for some people. Now in regards to movements and just the experience ( meaning the actual combat) and tactics I’m all for it, but certain things I think need to be left largely untouched, these being ammunition, and scenarios to an extent because otherwise games can be just to dam boring for most players.

For scenarios I’ll let you all remember Op. Hot Steel 2 not exactly a “milsim event” but its good enough for an example. When the objectives were given, they were too confusing for some players and half of them forgot them, leaving the game looking a little something like this, half the team just sitting behind cover shooting at anything that moved until somebody yelled charge, and the other half breaking off into little squads running around largely accomplishing nothing but confusion. The objectives and rules weren’t necessarily even that complex, just your run of the mill “defend this imaginary thing and they will attack from here and here are your weird medic rules.” Point is most people in large groups can’t handle that. Which is why I think you need to always have those good old fashion games with the granddaddy scenario that we all started with when we had are 30$ guns in our 1 acre back yard with 3 people, and that is team 1 kill team 2 and team 2 kill team 1, now of coarse with MILSIM rules added on to that, and once again im all for interesting scenarios with cool objectives but just not every time, its not engaging when I pay 45, 55, 75$ for a game it better be awesome.

As for ammunition I remember when I first got new magazines AHHHH I was so excited 5 WHOLE MID CAPS!!! And at my first game I was so ready to use em when I found out I could only use 2… GOD DIGGITY DOODLE DANGIT I thought, but it really wasn’t too bad, I’m not really trigger happy but it was just a little disappointing, and 6 Thompson clips really isn’t even that much. Which is why I think you need to accommodate everybody raise and lower the mag limits throughout the day, but 1 mag is almost always not enough.

So once again to some up everything everyone has said already

MILSIM= Great

Too much MILSIM= Frowny face
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  #43  
Old 03-10-2012, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton1943 View Post
...Which is why I think you need to always have those good old fashion games with the granddaddy scenario that we all started with when we had are 30$ guns in our 1 acre back yard with 3 people, and that is team 1 kill team 2 and team 2 kill team 1, now of coarse with MILSIM rules added on to that, and once again im all for interesting scenarios with cool objectives but just not every time, its not engaging when I pay 45, 55, 75$ for a game it better be awesome.
Ok so what kind of milsim rules do you want to add when you are clearly trying to play it like Modern Warfare or Battlefield?

What is left from "milsim" if you don't have any kind of limitations such as respawn, ammo or even intricate/complicated missions?

It sounds like you are all asking for milsim to be in the title of the event but not in the ruleset!?!
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  #44  
Old 03-10-2012, 08:52 PM
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Sorry, let me be more specific, when i mean simple scenario, i was only refering to objectives, I think the rules in regards to comand structure, limitations, kill rules, medic rules, ect should be more reallistic (milsim) also story boards and backstorys i also like too see in airsoft but complex objectives can sometmes get anoying simply because there either chaotic or just unengaging. Now of course i dont always want that kind of simplistic objectve. And also personaly i hate call of duty airsoft. Im not calling for dumbed down airsoft im calling for simple but reallistic arisoft. I love milsm but its just so hard to get a big milsm game that is both ingaging and still feels like a milsim. And once again, i do like complex objective if they work, which is rarely.
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