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Old 03-09-2010, 02:06 PM
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America's war: Plausible but how?

I got a video from a good friend regarding some militia standing up against talibans and it got me thinking; If America would come under attack (inner or outer), what or who could be the cause and how would it unfold? Could it be an invasion from the seas, the north, the south? could be into the form of another civil war? why and who?

Your comments and suggestions are more than welcome as long as you give the facts or information readily available.

note: Please keep the discussion civilized and mature.
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:13 PM
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Foreign Invader
300+ million people (Roughly 3.4 million military)
200+ million known & citizen owned firearms
Home field advantage

vs

The largest (3.5 million active & reserve personel) military (China).

Even with a 50% casualty rate the US would still be ahead. The US's biggest problem is most forces are spread in the ME & Europe but with a armed nation & a rapid response time of 8-12hrs worldwide it's not a big issue. We're also not land locked which creates a very difficult land assault for the attacking force.

It would be more effective to bleed us economically then militarily.

Civil War
Too many factors to type out. IMO if a civil war happens again, it'll be the people vs the government.
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:18 PM
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you are missing the point. It is not about how possible an invasion would succeed or not, it is about how USA would handle everything, from chaos to medical needs to transport to everything. It could be preceeded by a nuclear or biological war first for all we know.

Lets take an example. Few years back, NY lost their power grid. what happened then?

So take that and start developing; the "enemy" take care of the communication or the power grid, what happen then? the water get contaminated, what happen then?
I don't want the worse case scenario here, I just don't want a "ain't gonna happen" answer
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:49 PM
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Then NO. We couldn't get fresh water or food to people after Katrina.

I'm not a big fan of the nuclear attack what ifs. Nuclear weapons are deterents. The use of one by a nation would lead to M.A.D. <-OSU poly sci 101 stuff there..
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:57 PM
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IMO, from what I've read and research I've done, the most likely and most deadly attack that could happen to us would be the result of 1-3 nuclear devices being blown up 300 miles over the continental US. Resulting in an enormously widespread electromagnetic pulse (EMP) that would destroy anything and everything electrical that is not protected.

Not only would it be devastating, its one of the easiest things that someone could do to us.

Five nukes blowing up five cities, that's one thing, we can recover and defend ourselves against the enemy. We still have the rest of the country to continue on and fight back.

It only takes 1 nuke blown up 300 miles above the center of the continental United States to send an EMP that will destroy most of our electronics.

It doesn't even need to be a nuke sent by someone. We have had bad EMP attacks sent to us from the one that we need to stay alive, the sun. Currently we are in what is called a Solar Minor. This means that Solar activity right now is fairly low. Moving on in the next few years we are heading into a Solar Major. When the sun gives off solar flares it sends out EMP into the universe. A few years back a Solar Flare caused major outages in Canada. Luckily it didn't affect a major city such as LA or New York.

When I say electronics I mean everything. Basically everything built post-1980 and most everything built pre-1980. The only cars, radios and televisions that will work will have to have been made pre-1980.

I just read the book One Second After by William R. Forstchen. It depicts life after one of these attacks.

Some almost immediate affects would include;

1. At any given time over the United States there are approx. 3000 planes in the air. Every single one of these made post WWII will fall from the sky. Killing anyone and everyone on board.

2. Death to everyone who is dependent on some sort of medical need within a month. For example elderly patients with needed meds, type 1 diabetics, the list goes on.

3. Food shortages resulting in people pillaging and stealing what is needed for their family to survive.

4. Bands of people joining together and basically killing everyone who cannot be used, and kidnapping everyone that can. Taking over cities, keeping all of the food for themselves.

The government does not have a public plan that is set in place for the recovery of one of these attacks. Even if we don't know who has done this to us, we will have nuked every major city that had the possibility to do this to us. Other countries would come in, saying they are trying to 'help'. They will claim parts of the countries as their own.

I don't know who would do this to us, or why, but it is the worst possible thing that could be done.

To find out more, just Google EMP Preparedness and you can find other sources that will have more info. I recommend reading the book mentioned above also.

I can't find who said it, but some big EMP guru/congressmen/Dr. guy said this;

"Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when."

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Old 03-09-2010, 03:04 PM
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Wouldn't that EMP attack affect other countries too? I mean an attach at 300 miles above would outreach the US like Canada, South america, etc? Then, is that mean that would become a no electronic zone for hours, days, weeks? If it is the case, no one could even get close to us as long as that EMP attack is still going on. that would mean the US would go back to the farwest period where everyone was on its own.
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:13 PM
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I always had a running theory with a buddy of mine that our nation would go out with more of a whimper than a roar... Think of it more as "The Collapse". A senario that throws a wrench into the entire workings of the country; such as a pandemic, economic collapse, or resource depletion like a drying up of oil.

In any of those situations the government would slowly release its grip on outlying populations such as territories like Puerto Rico and remote states like Hawaii and Alaska first. Think of it like frostbite on an extremity: local law enforement and emergency services would be the first to go as either control, funds, or resources start to dry up; then state agencies; then finally federal services. An exception to this would be National Guard and Reserve units, upon a national emergency they would be activated first and fall under federal control, before active duty units could be brought back from over seas posts. Only units not activated immediately by the federal government would be left to defend individual states.

As the frostbite analogy continues, control of the government would slowly recede back to the seat of power (D.C.). By this time, any semblance of our former government would have disappeared, and the executive branch would have gained control over the entirety of governance. This situation would be played out on the idividual state level as well. As states would be slowly left to fend for themselves for everything. The economy would have long since been destroyed. Some states might band together, for mutual benefit. Some states might try annex other states, Nevada for example might want to try to annex California due to its natural resources. Each state has long since become its own territory as control slowly folded back to the seat of power. Another way to look at it would be to look at how expansion of our nation started from the seat of power on the Eastern shore, and pushed west. During The Collapse, this will just be a reversal of our nation's expansion period.

Surely there would be violence during this time, as the "have's" and "have-not's" battle for resources. Rural communities would probably become seclusive an band together as their own small "city-states". Eventually, things would resemble more like Feudalistic England, territories governing themselves.

Be aware though, it would take a cataclysm to cause this to happen; global pandemics, global economic collapse, or global resource collapse like all of the world's oil drying up. But that is how I feel things would slowly break down. An attack would be unlikely, unless the US was the only country suffering in this time.

Global war could also cause The Collapse. Our nation is highly dependent on outside resources now, and as countries side during a global war, resources such as oil might just "go away". If the country were invaded, it would only be after The Collapse started, as we would be too weak to defend ourselves in an organized way. This could also cause civil war, ^ such as the annexing example. There is so much that could destroy the US, it is almost impossible to imagine any one thing standing out over any other.
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:18 PM
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Blade,

I have worked with DES on a few things in the past. I can tell you that we as a society wouldnt be able to withstand and endure the basics yet alone a major conflict. The general dumbing and numbing of society proves that Americans as a whole act as sheep. They follow the leader and trust that the government will be there in the time of crysis.

As Urban Marine pointed out, we struggled just to get water and basic medical supplies to the victims of katrina. The people have not needed to prepare themselves to survive. We live in a society of people, that see having to wait in line to pay for food at Krogers to be a terrible thing. What would these people do if Kroger couldnt get any food at all?

I have always been taught to think a month ahead. But I was raised by a different standard than most men my age today. I was taught how to hunt, grow food and fend for myself. If war came to the States, people would be lost.

On the other end of this, we as a people have shown amazing ablilties to handle adverse times. Americans would recover, and bring extreme payback to those that attacked. Just ask any older Japanese person from WW2. American would stand and fight. But the first 60 days, we would loose many.

This is just my opinion, I am an old Ky guy and we tend to look at stuff differently.

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Old 03-09-2010, 03:18 PM
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I disagree completely.. It won't be a foreign super power or terrorist movement. If America came into conflict it would be an American Civil war. It wouldn't be the North vs. the South, not the Republicans vs. the Democrats (kinda actually) It would be a fight between the rich and the poor. 2% of America is rich, the other 98% are poor and the rich believe they should pay less tax because they have more money. Recession leads to the depression which leads to revolt. How America would deal with the issue? They would deal with it the way we/they always have... Adapt and over-come.
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:24 PM
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Lucky226, define your "adapt and overcome" please.
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:30 PM
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I gotta go to work, I will post a crap ton tonight on the topic.
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:30 PM
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I'm not gonna get into this very much BUT. If a civil war did start trust me it will be anything from a 2 sided battle. It'll probably start out as people vs. the government but deteriorate very fast to everyone fighting everyone. Of course there will be one superior side fighting god knows how many small forces, but if it happens it'll be a HUGE mess. A good book to read would be The Coming Insurrection by the Invisible Committee. It's was written by a communist but it's still a good read.
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:39 PM
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An invasion from a foriegn country is very unlikely. Unless if everyone happened to hate us and decided to gang bang us for kicks and giggles. So I suppose it might be possible.

Like metioned above, it will most likely come from economic collapse. China doesn't need to invade what they already own.
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
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An invasion from a foriegn country is very unlikely. Unless if everyone happened to hate us and decided to gang bang us for kicks and giggles. So I suppose it might be possible.

Like metioned above, it will most likely come from economic collapse. China doesn't need to invade what they already own.

So true, but what happens when you don't pay a bill? Doesn't a bill collector come calling on you? So what happens if China wants to collect it's debts?
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:59 PM
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So true, but what happens when you don't pay a bill? Doesn't a bill collector come calling on you? So what happens if China wants to collect it's debts?
Then they invade.....der? But I think that if it gets to a point where China starts demanding bills be payed the outcome may not be good. Higher taxes, riots, food shortages, etc. And than China will wait for us to fight each other off than invade.
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What!?!?!!!???!!!!! A self aware ANG? The Mayans were right! Time to head to the bunkers boys, its the end of days!

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Old 03-09-2010, 04:01 PM
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Then they invade.....
Or they shut down every business they own and get the ressources/money out of the country...and create even bigger chaos.
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Old 03-09-2010, 04:05 PM
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Blade, I told you Canada will never stand a chance attacking the USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by strikers_blade View Post
I got a video from a good friend regarding some militia standing up against talibans and it got me thinking; If America would come under attack (inner or outer), what or who could be the cause and how would it unfold? Could it be an invasion from the seas, the north, the south? could be into the form of another civil war? why and who?

Your comments and suggestions are more than welcome as long as you give the facts or information readily available.

note: Please keep the discussion civilized and mature.
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Old 03-09-2010, 04:25 PM
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I think that if the collapse ever does occur, the city centers will be devastated. The rural areas, especially farming communities would most likely survive. I mean we have tractors that would run after EMPs (Diesel) and horses after that (although I might hafta use someones lawn furniture). Heck, my 79 Mustang would still run, it has a carburetor (no ECM), just hot wire the ignition circuit.
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Old 03-09-2010, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
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Wouldn't that EMP attack affect other countries too? I mean an attach at 300 miles above would outreach the US like Canada, South america, etc? Then, is that mean that would become a no electronic zone for hours, days, weeks? If it is the case, no one could even get close to us as long as that EMP attack is still going on. that would mean the US would go back to the farwest period where everyone was on its own.
I'm not sure if Hawaii would be affected. That's 2500 miles from California. Secondly, most military electronics are hardened against EMP . So, it wouldn't take long to find the source of the blast and take appropriate response.
Your XBox would be toast however.
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Old 03-09-2010, 04:48 PM
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Blade, I told you Canada will never stand a chance attacking the USA.
Even in Fallout 3, America annexed Canada.

I think the most probable thing would be a civil war where citizens overthrow the government because it was becoming too powerful/not being democratic. Just imagine the fall of Rome, where one group (not necessarily one person, could be the president, or a powerful Congress, or even the Supreme Court. In the past, Supreme Court has exerted itself over the other branches) takes over the government. Basically a V for Vendetta/Fall of Rome/Star Wars scenario.
Outside conventional invasion doesn't seem likely to me, because of technology/early warning systems, and as said, nuclear deterents; however, I must disagree with what some of the people above have posted. In my opinion, the nation could be crippled by a few nuclear weapons detonated in the nation's major cities (Washington D.C., New York City, Chicago, Los Angelos). From there, the effects would spiral outwards. The economy would be destroyed, and the functions of government would break down.

I also find it hard to believe that the government has not considered the threat of EMP attack. Technology has been around that is EMP resistant. The Air Force base in Cheyenne Mountain has been made to withstand direct impact from a nuclear warhead and all of the effects that go with it.
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Old 03-09-2010, 04:54 PM
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Invading this country is soooo much easier than all of you think. It may take some time but within a year or two you could have a force well into the thousands if not close to a million. It just depends on who.

So you send your people over here as average everyday people. They come over with a bank account that their government set's up for them. They go to college, they go into the work place and start meeting people. The dumb, sheep or anti-government people start to follow. They are citizens of this country and start to buy weapons and chemicals to make IED's (and not the kind you lay on the side of the road). The kind you carry into a hospital and set off. The kind you take with you to your job at AEP.

So what you do is network and set up cell's. They grow and some get shut down and others grow. You then formulate a end all plan. You have your groups get ready to make their stands. They go to hospital's, police stations, fire stations, water treatment plants and electrical plants and so forth. All places where your members of your groups have jobs at. They all set off their IED's at a set time. Now this is something that is going to very tough and is only the first step.

Now I have had beer's with friends of mine and we have run this kind of idea over and over again. I am not going to go any more into detail about what I would do seeing as I don't really want to take the chance that someone will read this and act on it or that the "black car" shows up at my house.

Do I think that war can end up in America? Yes. Do I think it will happen soon? Depends on what you think soon is. 5 years, 10 years, 50 years. Yes. Do I think it will be you old fashion invading Army war? No, at least not at first.
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Old 03-09-2010, 05:20 PM
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It wont come from invasion or civil war. Its just not practical when all countries like China have to do is pull the plug from the American economy and we're all screwed. Why waste billions of lives, especially at the threat of nuclear retaliation from a conventional invasion, when you could freeze assets and debt that cause even more damage.

The purpose of invasion in this case is not to occupy the land, but to bring your opponent to his knees. This can be done much more efficiently than invasion. The cost of an invasion would be enourmous and would take (contrary to what some say) years. We cant even secure a relitively small nation, regardless of its militant history, in eight years. Its not we arent efficient, it just that the costs and logistics of fighting large scale modern warfare are overwhelming.
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Old 03-09-2010, 05:30 PM
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The one main thing that scares me so much is that many of our goods including food are made overseas. Heck even my XD9 was mad in Croatia. My food that is in my fridge is made of pork that is grown in china. Almost all of my products were made overseas so if there is a war and trade is cut out we are in a world of hurt. Oil, pork, minerals, metals, and many other things are imported. 1/3 of America’s pork is from China. What I fear is if there is a major the U.S. can prevail not because of its Army but because of its armed citizens. We are one of the few countries that allow guns that can be semi- automatic, pistols, and hi capacity mags. (30+) rifles (7+) hand guns. Emp's are not suck a huge issue if you know about it. All you have to do to protect something is wrap a box in tin foil, throw whatever you want in the box, and just make sure it is completely covered. Tada you just made an EMP PROOF box. Now as being located on a farm I see advantages as well as huge disadvantages. First we have much fuel, parts, wells, a nice huge pantry and crops if needed. Now this would make us a target for all people. Now I agree that many people will die and be hurt and what not but the majority will survive. Will America win? I don’t know. Will the people survive? Yes. I just want to bring back the saying, “Survival of the Fittest”. This is how an animal society would work (No Government). Sure we would help each other but only to an extent and after that line it is every man for himself. My $.02 - Wahugg

A great show a few years back about a nuclear disaster in the US - the invading of countrys, was Jericho. It was a show about internal problems, problems with society, and goverment during a nuclear disaster were major U.S. cities are blown up and the goverment in disarray. If any of you have watched it you know what I mean. I recomend watching it on cbs.com A small town must learn how to survive, keep order, and fend off a curropt new goverment and greedy near by towns with armys.
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Old 03-09-2010, 05:39 PM
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Emp's are not suck a huge issue if you know about it. All you have to do to protect something is wrap a box in tin foil, throw whatever you want in the box, and just make sure it is completely covered. Tada you just made an EMP PROOF box.
Uhhh....no. If high energy beta particles can pass through solid rock, then they can pass through run of the mill tin foil. Plus, excess charge buildup on the surface of the tinfoil could discharge into the device if contact is made in some way shape for form.

Also, any vehicle using a solenoid would be destroyed as well, as the solenoid would fuse together.
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Old 03-09-2010, 05:39 PM
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Heres a link to a good book on the subject of a second U.S civil war.
http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-II-B.../dp/0929408179

Its a very interesting read and the author uses the conflict in the balkans as an example.
The reasons the book gives may be too political for the boards here so Ill refrain from posting them. But in my opinion the U.s is too big to be successfully invaded. Even if China hit us we would see them preparing to deploy and already beaware them moving on us. Terrorist cells could cause some trouble but not enough to disable the whole country. But an EMP blast like Skywalker said would knock us back 3 to 4 hundred years, That would be one way for a country to invade us.
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