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Old 07-31-2013, 03:31 PM
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lo caps & single shot :)

So... this is not another lo cap discussion or a single shot discussion. This is a discussion about co dependent nature of these two ideas.

note i use the term locap rather then real cap . I define a locap as a mag that holds less then 40-50 rounds rather then a real cap which emulates its real steel counter part.

I have been to indoor facilities that require single shot and ive also been to 6mm' game that required single shot. I found both experiences very rewarding. I always felt that what was missing was locaps. The play style in single shot changes and i love it.. but, the mentality is the same. 120 rds at single shot is alot of rounds. There is more reloading going on in a full auto game.

At the time you could not find a surplus of reliable lo cap magazines for many gun variations. As with highcaps the popularity of midcaps and the availability grew based on us (thats awesome about airsoft right?) . The same has happened for locaps with help of gbbr rifles and new magazine manufacturers.

Hit the breaks right? "JOHN! 1 bullet is equal to 3 bbs so it still doesn't work. Im not carrying 30 mags dude...."

That is where the discussion lay in this post. What will bridge that gap to make this a standard aspect of upper tier milsim?


I don't know if i have an answer but i have a suggestion to get us started.

1 bullet to 3 bbs is an honest assumption that has been accepted here a long time ago. That is why we fire in bursts and use 100 rd mags.

i suggest that the ratio is different the closer you are. In fact i suggest at 50 ft and under 1bb is an acceptable trainer for a bullet.

i recommend 50' and under single shot and 50' plus full auto if you want. This rule would be for a locap milsim game.

1.good idea?
2.Bad idea?
3.Worth a shot?
4.Nice, but rule needs work?
5.I have a suggestion?
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:39 PM
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By "single shot" I assume you're referring to making players stick to semi-auto?
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:05 PM
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I like the idea of the more realism in use low cap and real cap mags just never thought was practical with most airsoft guns. However i'd like them to become more apart of airsoft.
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:51 PM
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yes semi auto
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:57 PM
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I'm personally a big fan of implementing both. In a perfect world where everyone at a milsim can get 8-12 low/standard caps, it does have a major impact on the way players react to a situation.

Plus, the new GBBR's are all limited to 40-50 rounds per mag. They are legitimately fun airsoft guns to use, but in certain situations they are clearly undermatched against the (not-so-realistic) 90-150 round mid caps.
If you stick to semi and use midcaps, you can suppress all day - which really doesn't make much sense. Fights tend to stalemate out very soon. If I can get players to reload and think about the ammo they're using, we generally have a much more enjoyable game on our hands.
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:39 PM
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I personally love the idea because I have used my gbbr in a standard game. It was fun for about an hour, then I went back to the car and got my AEG. This equality in mag count would make having a gbbr much more of option for games because you know you're not at an immediate disadvantage.
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:05 AM
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This seems like the next level of milsim.

Well I think it's a good idea, but it would need some tweaking and extra rules to work.

1. Drop the 'semi-only' rule. There are times when full-auto is good. Players will use semi the majority of the time when they only have locaps anyway. Some objectives might also encourage semi, like wound and capture a VIP. If he/she's hit in a vital area, they die and the objective is lost.

2. Resupply. Before the game, have people load 4-6 mags, put them in a bag/box with their name. Then, once a certain objective is completed, have staff load these boxes onto a vehicle and drive them to a drop point where the players can resupply. And hope that people haven't stolen their mags.

3. SAW's must use reasonable mags. No 2500 electric auto-winders. Maybe standard winding 300rd M4 mags? That would only work for the M249 family though, so I don't know... RPK's can use AK mags, right?

And last but not least... Most AEG owners, so most milsimers, don't have any locaps. So while the idea's getting established, the attendance at events will be on the smaller side, with the majority of players probably using gbbrs.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryebread View Post
this seems like the next level of milsim.

Well i think it's a good idea, but it would need some tweaking and extra rules to work.

1. Drop the 'semi-only' rule. There are times when full-auto is good. Players will use semi the majority of the time when they only have locaps anyway. Some objectives might also encourage semi, like wound and capture a vip. If he/she's hit in a vital area, they die and the objective is lost.
good point lack of ammo may encourage single shot
2. Resupply. Before the game, have people load 4-6 mags, put them in a bag/box with their name. Then, once a certain objective is completed, have staff load these boxes onto a vehicle and drive them to a drop point where the players can resupply. And hope that people haven't stolen their mags.
sounds good except for the hope part . Also do we really want to limit the amount of magazines on top of lo caps.. Hmm
3. Saw's must use reasonable mags. No 2500 electric auto-winders. Maybe standard winding 300rd m4 mags? That would only work for the m249 family though, so i don't know... Rpk's can use ak mags, right?
this is a game of honor so we should be able to trust saw users with adding less ammo to their saws. Use mid caps maybe..? What should the reload amount be? Also if this can work for saws, why not let people bring mids and load less rounds? We can figure out how many bbs you get out of x clicks of a mag loader.
and last but not least... Most aeg owners, so most milsimers, don't have any locaps. So while the idea's getting established, the attendance at events will be on the smaller side, with the majority of players probably using gbbrs.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:55 AM
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As far as the limiting low caps, you kinda already are limited in the ammount you can carry. Most vests allow for 8-12 mags on a vest. You can carry more in a ruck, but they are hard to get to in a fire fight.

Low caps (for AEGs) are actually very cheap, like 10 for 50 bucks.

Now I agree auto is useful, I actually think auto should be encouraged some what because it forces reloads. However there are safety concerns too, so buildings should be semi only.

SAWs should have 500-600 rounds ( 3 speed loaders). To reload the saw you should be forced to remove the barrel, put it back in (if applicable), then load the box mag and fire. This simulates barrels over heating. If a quick change barrel is not available, then there should be a minute or 30 sec cool down, then reload and fire.
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Old 08-01-2013, 11:06 AM
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I've found that low caps do not come in a whole lot of variety. Most of them are M4 mags, so I've found.

However, I could be wrong.
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Old 08-01-2013, 11:22 AM
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For the SAW-users, I think 300-600 is a good amount, hence the hicap idea. Box mags work fine too, as long as that's how much they're filled. If 3 bbs = 1 bullet, they'd have the equivalent of 100-200 rounds per mag, around what real SAWs use.

The idea of letting players use midcaps and limiting their ammo is a good one. 11-13 clicks with a speedloader would give you 40-50 rounds.

Resupply would work for some scenarios and game lengths, but not others. It all depends on the event in question. And if the staff is trustworthy, the mags would probably be pretty safe. We trust people not to take our stuff at the staging area, don't we? And a ticket system would prevent mix-ups during resupply.

I really like this in whole locap idea. Stalemate firefights from behind trees got boring before I even started going to real events.
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:10 PM
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Low caps, being a low as they are, resolves any issue with allowing/not allowing full-auto. If a player wants to use full-auto, they would simply have to deal with needing to reload more often.

If I were running a low-cap game, I would implement the following rules:

1) No mag limits. You can use as much as you can carry.
2) No loose ammo/speed loaders on your person. All your active ammo needs to be in a mag.
3) Reloads only happen at HQ or when you receive supply drops. Drops are managed by EO's to make sure your property stays yours.

x4) perhaps designate two types of support weapons. a) entrenched positions that have extra ammo have no limit, but cannot be moved from that position and still reap the benefits of the extra ammo. b) your normal SAW gunner member, limited to one box or a small handful of high-caps.
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:53 PM
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for your resupply idea ryebread you could take away bb/click loaders and have stick loaders/lodading rods at supply points.

that's if you wanted to do that in your game.

i don't think people would sign up for a game like that looking to cheat the rule. It could be midcap mags with an honor system. how many rounds should the mags hold 30/50? i do see your point about locaps making the need for single shot mute.
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:13 PM
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I'd go with 40-50.

For resupply, I'd allow both tubes and loaders for the same reasons as allowing mids and lows.

However, I'd limit the amount of ammo in your resupply package to be no more than 50*the number of mags you carry. The pistol-mag-sized loaders would work great for this, since they hold ~100 bbs.

Sky's 2 different support weapon styles is also a great idea. I'd allow all support gunners to become stationary gunners, BUT only if you're assigned to guard duty. That would prevent people from using it as a resupply point. Then once you're off guard duty, you revert to a normal SAW gunner.
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