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Old 08-08-2007, 01:24 AM
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Lightbulb Chalk BB's

Alot of controversy in the airsoft community lays in the simple fact that there really is no way that one can identify whether or not the opposing player has been hit by a bb and is inable to return to play. Some players merely shrug of a hit from any part of the body ranging from the foot to right between the eyes and continue to play knowing that what they are doing is clearly against the rules and very un-sportsman-like. And to be honest, I think eveyone at one point or another is guilty of this.

My suggestion comes from something I learned while snooping around on the web and watching some TV. As some of you may know, the military uses a specially designed "bullet" that is made of Chalk inorder to identify whether or not a soldier in a training exercise has been hit by a round. The bullet will leave a residue on the blouse or trousers of the soldier as well as project a puff of dust when hit. The beloved hosts of Op. Irene use this very technique in actual military similations at Ft. Knox.

So, if a bullet could do this, why cant we find a way to adapt this technique to our sport? I realize that the forces behind a bullet are much much much greater then a simple bb. But that is why this is an open suggestion for the collective minds of a community to discuss and develop in hopes of taking control of every aspect of the game. Leaving nothing to variables.

A chalk bb would leave behind a residue on the BDU/clothing/whatever of the player that can only be removed by washing the mark with water. If any of you have ever gotten chalk on any clothing, its not that easy to remove. This could be a way to identify if a player is being truthful in his ventures, by simply observing the players equipment for any glance. A direct hit would be more then enough to leave a nice sized make on any equipment. Even hits that are not fully solid or direct would leave some form of mark.

Problems:

With out saying there are many problems with this idea. One being the fact that chalk bb's may be easily crushed or pulverized if not made correctly. Also, firing these bb's in your gun may cause dust to choke your gearbox by negating the lubrication in side of it. But this could be solved by a cylinder designed specifically to seal the bb chamber from the rest of the gearbox. And there may simply be the fact that there may be not enough force behind the bb inorder to "mark" the opponent. Your average gun only delivers about .7 to 1 joules of energy. Also, just like whipping in paintball, some players could possibly use the water stored in their camelback to scrub away any hit.

Advantages

But there are some possible advantages to this idea. Besides being able to identify a hit, a chalk bb would be softer then a plastic bb and would put less wear and tear on things such as the hop-up and percise "thightbore" barrels. They also have more "give" in them as they shatter much easier then conventinal bb's, so contact with the skin may not necissarly result in a puncture wound at close ranges. They are also eco-friendly. Chalk is a mineral-like dust, so it has little problem dissolving away into an enviorment. No more yards, gardens and driveways littered with little plastic pellets everywhere.

Anyway

This is nothing more then a topic starter and a general suggestion. I thought that maybe some of the others here would be interested in taking part in such an idea an possibly using it to spark greater techiniques in proventing foul-play. Its an open opinion and eveyone is entitled to their own thoughts. But someones got to suggest something inorder for it to ever leave the drawing board and emerge into the field.

Post your opinions, ideas, comments, suggestions, questions...whatever. Its all welcome.

Spectre
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Last edited by Spectre; 08-08-2007 at 01:31 AM. Reason: forgot something.
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:19 AM
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I personally would never ever want to put chalk in my gun. If one of them broke it would be a big pain in the *** to clean up. I like the idea of being able to tell who is hit and who is not. Again this would be like the little paintball bbs that would crap out on you, not always explode, and morph in the heat then get stuck in your gun. If you can find away that would keep the bbs from harming the guns in any way possible then you would have a great way to play airsoft, untill then I'm sticking with plain tsd .20's.
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:25 AM
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Iagree with cutthroat. Cleaning a gbb is a pain in the butt, and if you dont know how to take apart your AEG, you could have serious problems if the dust or chunks of the bb;s got into your gears.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:08 AM
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Maintenance is not something that bothers me. If a sim-bb was created then I would be all for it, pending that the system used in the gun would be a good one and not require me replacing parts after every game.

However, you need to re think your Joules there. Because the average gun at Irene, is well over 1 joule.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:02 PM
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What If we could put a plastic sleeve over the BB.

Like a 6mm plastic casing that comes of in flight to let out a 5mm chalk bb.

BUt that would mean the bb would need seams.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:17 PM
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Also, you would need an ejection port wich no aeg I have ever seen has one besides the RAP4's.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:48 PM
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No its different

Okay there it would look somthing like this

(o) The outer layer would be a 6mm plastic case.
The inner layer would be the 5mm chalk bb

The outer layer would fall of in mid flight.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&N View Post
No its different

Okay there it would look somthing like this

(o) The outer layer would be a 6mm plastic case.
The inner layer would be the 5mm chalk bb

The outer layer would fall of in mid flight.

What you are suggesting is a sabot round.

This is getting ridiculous....
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:32 PM
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If the outer layer would come off anywhere, it'd be in the barrel where there's more friction.

How about new tactical gear with motion detecting devices implanted, emmiting an electromagnetic field that interacts with a magnetized BB and sends off an alarm? *cough*
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:33 PM
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We could all just play paintball and abandon the entire concept of airsoft.

Or, we could just play by the rules and not over dramatise a handful of isolated events.
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:40 PM
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I dont see anything ridiculous in a suggestion like this. Its all theoretical. I dont see a sabot working though, its too complicated and prone to failure.

I did mention that a special cylinder could be used to prevent dust from entering the gearbox and prevent cleaning problems. Also, the round wouldnt be as weak structurally as you think it would be. A paintball is a hollow sphere, uhlike a triangle or square, it has no support to resist outside forces.

But a solid round made from any type of calcium depost material would be resistant to crushing (if produced right) because the impact force of the compressed air would be distributed throughout the round and not just a hollow shell. (And the liquid inside the shell only preserves the destructive force in the bb, increasing the probablity of a break.)

And I based my .7 to 1 joule fact on these principles. Not everyone in the community uses upgraded guns. The standard gun shooting at 300fps with .2 grams delivers about .96 joules. And also most guns exported out of Japan can not exceed .98 joules due to government regulations.
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Clips View Post
We could all just play paintball and abandon the entire concept of airsoft.

Or, we could just play by the rules and not over dramatise a handful of isolated events.
Why do you feel the need to shoot it down before it ever gets started.

There are always going to be people who dont play by the rules, and this could be a way to help stop the problem. It will not eleviate it, but it will at least make people think twice about shrugging off a hit to keep playing.

Im not being dramatic, just suggestive.
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:19 PM
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if the chalk can only be removed by water, you would have to shower in between rounds. to much like paintball. but a decent suggestion.
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:39 PM
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you could make a sabot for a chunk for chalk, just not how M&N stated it. For anyone that has ever watched mythbusters they would make these foam sabots that would have a split down the middle. They would put what they wanted to fire inside (in this case a dead chicken) and the sabot would "peel" off of the chicken. There is a major down side to doing this though. 1) you would need specialy desighned magazines and hop-up chambers, etc. in order to accomodate these rounds. 2) not only would we be leaving thousands of plastic bb's all over the field, but now we are adding foam to it. 3) You wouldn't be able to fire this out of any airsoft gun in current existance, and 4) this would cause the round to slow down a lot due to the extra frition and weight added by said sabot. So while it sounds like a good idea at first, it really isn't practical.
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
So while it sounds like a good idea at first, it really isn't practical.
I disagree.... it didn't sound like a good idea at anytime.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReverseFlank View Post
if the chalk can only be removed by water, you would have to shower in between rounds. to much like paintball. but a decent suggestion.
Too much like paintball? I have news for you, besides the fact that the "guns" are different, airsoft and paintball differ very little. This does exclude speedball, which is about the most idiotic thing I have ever seen. The tactics are similiar, the means to which you conceal yourself, the equipment you use to carry neccesities. The only real difference from woodsball and any old airsoft game is the fact that a marker uses a .68 caliber round and an AEG uses a 6mm round.

Now paintball never had anything to do with it, but it does have one distinct advantage and that is you can tell when someone is hit because of the unmistakable splat.

And why would you need to shower? You may have to remove some marks with water and a cloth but that would take all but two minutes to do. Its not even worth complaining about.
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:36 PM
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I still prefer the whole, " if they dont go down, than it must mean that they want some more, and should unload on them."
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:42 PM
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I don't think that cheating is a big enough problem to warrant an entire new rule system, ammunition, regulations, referees, gun conversions, and the like.

Also, you guys that are talking about sabots, do you have any idea how expensive all of this would become? Bb's could become as expensive as paintballs, which frankly would suck. I don't see what the big deal is about using good ol' Polystyrene. Airsoft is supposed to be a game based on the honor system, and if you take that away then you are taking away airsoft's identity itself. If you have got cheaters, talk to the hosting team / person running the event. They are there for a reason. This is why some people pay more for events. To weed out the "Billy who got a DE M86 for Christmas" types. This may sound pretty elitist and that is far from the truth (I do not condone elitism in the least bit, don't get me wrong), but I think that the root of the problem is certain players themselves. If we instituted these chalk bb's as standard, sure the old problems of cheating would go away, but only a new set would arise. I would much rather have the small inconvenience of having a person not calling their hits every now and then, than coming home at the end of the day with not only my BDUs covered in chalk, but my gear and weapon as well.

Speaking of. I doubt that it would be as easy to remove chalk stains from gear as it would from plain BDUs.
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravey View Post
I still prefer the whole, " if they dont go down, than it must mean that they want some more, and should unload on them."
You know. sometimes people don't feel the hits. Unloading on them will only get you kicked out of the game.
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Old 08-08-2007, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vbtb110 View Post
And what about those of us who use gear? I wouldn't my rig to get chalk all over it.
My gear is almost always covered in mud, plant matter, and paint. A little chalk would only add to the mess that I call a rig.

But seriously, a chalk BB? As has been said, if even one of those explodes at any point in your AEG or GBB, it could mean jamming and/or damage if not immediately caught as well as extensive cleaning. If you encase it in a thin plastic shell, it will either need seams to open up midflight, or be extremely thin to break open on impact. If you go with the seam idea, then say goodbye to tightbores and hello to severe accuracy problems. If you go with the thin shell idea, then the shell will take the brunt of the impact and the chalk inside probably wont leave much of a mark (unless the chalk inside is in powder form, which will cause the BB to be fragile, and prone to breaking inside the gun).

Any of these ideas is sure to cause the cost of BBs to increase. Not only would the price to manufacture it be more expensive, but R&D costs would also be huge. Now, if you really want this idea to take off, then why don't you pitch it to a BB manufacturer? Otherwise, it will just be one of the other ideas that gets plenty of talk on the forums, gets lost with time, and every few years gets brought back up and forgotten again.

As Big Clips said, I don't feel that the amount of cheating on airsoft fields justifies producing new BBs and/or new internals for AEGs and GBBs to stop cheating. If a cheater gets hit by a chalk BB and doesn't call it, how are you really going to convince them that the mark of chalk on them is from you and not from earlier in the game? It will only end up as more "my word against yours" and won't really prevent anything.

Cheating should be something that is solved by the community, not a BB manufacturer. Apparently cheating has become something that a lot of people are becoming frustrated with. So, event organizers, listen to complaints, police your events, and remove / ban cheaters at your events. Players, watch for cheaters, talk to them, work with them, and if necessary, inform the organizers. It is up to us to improve our sport.
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Old 08-09-2007, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
The only real difference from woodsball and any old airsoft game is the fact that a marker uses a .68 caliber round and an AEG uses a 6mm round.
if that is the only difference you can honestly see i have news for YOU, why not play paintball?
i just recently moved from the paintball community, it is nowhere as tight-knit as the airsoft community. Airsoft also has the capability to be extremely more realistic, including things such as, well, standerd magazines instead of a bulky hopper. i know you said besides guns, but it is realy more of an ammo capacity thing. you also mentioned the gear needed to carry what is needed, my friend has a paintball vest. it is extremely bulky and hard to use. YOU HAVE TO CARRY FOUR PODS ON THE FRONT AND A MASSIVE CO2 TANK IN THE BACK. airsoft equipment is 1:1 scale. his vest compared to mine is huge.

I ment by saying to much like paintball because after each round you have to wash off old paint, if there is a close decsion in the next round they may call you out due to an old paint stain.

[QUOTE][It will only end up as more "my word against yours" and won't really prevent anything./QUOTE]

that is exactly what i mean, sry if this comes out rough
RF
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But why do we bother doing anything that's pointless. What would Leonardo Da Vinci have done if a management consultant forced him to run a P&L on the Mona Lisa? He'd stab the son of a ***** in the eye with a charcoal pencil. Then he'd go invent the helicopter.

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Old 08-09-2007, 01:02 PM
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Chalk residue would build up in the hopup unit and barrel, causing feeding problems, lower fps rates, and bad accuracy.
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Old 08-09-2007, 04:25 PM
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While I agree that its nice to see others actively attempting to improve the game (need i remind how many trys it took edison to get the lightbulb correct) there are alot of obvious reasons you overlooked while posting and thats why there are those with derogatory comments.

a) Chalk can be brushed off very quickly..ESP a 6mm specle
b) As stated above chalk dust = bad for gun no ifs ands or buts.
c) Sabot = bad. Paintballs break in gun, i can only imagine what an imperfect one of these would do. Not to mention one or 2 or 3 breaking INSIDE your mag and the effect it would cause by lodging itself inbetween the spring and the casing. I would expect to bring multiple hop up buckings to compensate for what i see as constant hopup damage.
d) Expenses, as stated above.
e) Whats the weight difference between the current plastic and chalk?
f) There are some individuals who carry an allergy to chalk and its dust. While i would not see this as a normal problem considering the size of the pellet, i would not prefer to expose someone to something they could have a bad reaction to esp when its hot and breathing is at a high rate in the first place.

My suggestion as for products that could be mass marketed is to
a) research it and keep it a secret until its perfected
b) patent it and sell it to another company
c) sit back and ride the cash flow.

Once again, not trying to come off as a prick, just some friendly advice.
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Old 08-09-2007, 06:30 PM
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[QUOTE=ReverseFlank;135433]if that is the only difference you can honestly see i have news for YOU, why not play paintball?
i just recently moved from the paintball community, it is nowhere as tight-knit as the airsoft community. Airsoft also has the capability to be extremely more realistic, including things such as, well, standerd magazines instead of a bulky hopper. i know you said besides guns, but it is realy more of an ammo capacity thing. you also mentioned the gear needed to carry what is needed, my friend has a paintball vest. it is extremely bulky and hard to use. YOU HAVE TO CARRY FOUR PODS ON THE FRONT AND A MASSIVE CO2 TANK IN THE BACK. airsoft equipment is 1:1 scale. his vest compared to mine is huge.

I ment by saying to much like paintball because after each round you have to wash off old paint, if there is a close decsion in the next round they may call you out due to an old paint stain.

Quote:
[It will only end up as more "my word against yours" and won't really prevent anything./QUOTE]

that is exactly what i mean, sry if this comes out rough
RF
You've told me nothing I havent already known. I got out of paintball because I disliked some of the attitudes within the community. I know about pod space and how much you need to carry, But I NEVER carried 4 PODS! Thats way to much, I would have never carried that much. Thats absurd. And a CO2 tank is not that big.

Now this isnt a dicussion on paintball.
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Old 08-09-2007, 06:42 PM
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well, im not going to argue, but four pods for a day of woods ball is completely reasonable. also a 30 once c02 tank is quite large. and your personal use is kind of beside the point right? i told you how airsoft is un-like paintball.
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But why do we bother doing anything that's pointless. What would Leonardo Da Vinci have done if a management consultant forced him to run a P&L on the Mona Lisa? He'd stab the son of a ***** in the eye with a charcoal pencil. Then he'd go invent the helicopter.

[Texx] 11:14 pm: giving Loki Neg Rep is like pissing on a forest fire...sure its fun and toasty but come on
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