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Old 04-02-2010, 12:37 PM
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GIs Outgunned?

Saw this on AOL thought I should share it with you guys.
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04...n-afghanistan/
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:42 PM
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Interesting, but not surprising. In every theater, we learn something new.

Took us years for our military to wrap its brain around the effectiveness of IEDs and insurgent CQC in Iraq. /facepalm
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:16 PM
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Nothing new there. You have to sacrifice something for something. Heavy rounds for more weight less ammo or light rounds for less weight more ammo. DMs are the new distance fighter in todays war.

Sadly the ground pounders are the last to get properly equipped but they're the first to be where the metal hits the meat.
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:22 PM
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http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/03/army_m14_032210w/

They are getting M14's back out there
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:25 PM
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Our military are some of the best marksmans in the world. A standard infantryman/woman are well equipped in weaponary. It's the training behind that weapon thats makes them the best.

Remember that.......
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Old 04-02-2010, 02:22 PM
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I am a huge fan and supporter of the military...BUT...when is the government going to stop underestimating not only the enemy but that of our own resources. They continue to overestimate our conventional forces while at the same time discounting our special forces.

History has PROVEN....Afghanistan is NOT a conventional theater. Just look at what Delta, DEVGRU, and the 5th did shortly after 9-11.....What took the Russians over a decade to unsuccessfully do....

We need to recognize the need and need to change out tactics....
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:07 PM
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I love how the articles keep saying how expensive new weapons are. Sure the EBR is $3000, but the ordnance they drop otherwise costs many times more than that, and the EBR is reusable... Government spending never has, and never will make sense to me...
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:31 PM
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A $3000 EBR, $2k in ammo and $1k in armor is less than paying $250k or more in serviceman's group life insurance when that rifleman gets killed.
MAKE SENSE NOW?
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Old 04-02-2010, 06:38 PM
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Look at what the British Military is doing with the new LMT MRP .308 platform.

They went from ordering 3000 for testing, to now - I believe, the final count at SHOTSHOW 2010 was 54,000 and growing.

It's a modular, .308 rifle. It ships with a 12 inch, 16 inch and 18 inch SPR barrel which can be used for 1000m engagements.

As well, the on-going popularity of 7.62 systems all around the world. I foresee, for Afghanistan, the prime choice of ammo will be 7.62.
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Old 04-02-2010, 06:47 PM
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This doesn't really surprise me. I do have a quick question however, I believe it is related.

I thought that the Army was attempting to outfit the current deployed units with MK16's. This is just what I gathered from some things I have read, and that the M4's will begin to be phased out. With that in mind, and again I'm not sure if that is actually happening, will this better equip the Army so that they can be more productive in long-range combat, or are we only making the switch to save on money?
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:53 PM
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A M16 that could shoot 7.62x39mm would be nice. they probably have one but call it something different. And i heard they were looking at the M416. which looks like a M4 but has the durability and resistance of a AK-47.
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Old 04-02-2010, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
Look at what the British Military is doing with the new LMT MRP .308 platform.

They went from ordering 3000 for testing, to now - I believe, the final count at SHOTSHOW 2010 was 54,000 and growing.

It's a modular, .308 rifle. It ships with a 12 inch, 16 inch and 18 inch SPR barrel which can be used for 1000m engagements.

As well, the on-going popularity of 7.62 systems all around the world. I foresee, for Afghanistan, the prime choice of ammo will be 7.62.
I can't agree more here. Training with my M16 in the Army, we trained for 300 meter shots with iron sites which became second nature to hit a human silhouette.. Unfortunately you can't really reach out and touch someone at 1,000 meters with a 5.56 projectile. With all the open air between you and the enemy, the 5.56 falls short (quite literally) against he 7.62 the enemy forces are firing.

Also, just my two cents... When your enemy is doped up on drugs and you shoot them in a non-vital area with a 5.56, they continue to keep firing at you unphased. When you hit someone with a 7.62, there is no "non-vital" area in the human body. The round rips a great deal of flesh out of the target and they simply do not get back up.
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Old 04-02-2010, 11:32 PM
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I can't agree more here. Training with my M16 in the Army, we trained for 300 meter shots with iron sites which became second nature to hit a human silhouette.. Unfortunately you can't really reach out and touch someone at 1,000 meters with a 5.56 projectile. With all the open air between you and the enemy, the 5.56 falls short (quite literally) against he 7.62 the enemy forces are firing.

Also, just my two cents... When your enemy is doped up on drugs and you shoot them in a non-vital area with a 5.56, they continue to keep firing at you unphased. When you hit someone with a 7.62, there is no "non-vital" area in the human body. The round rips a great deal of flesh out of the target and they simply do not get back up.
This is all dependant on which 7.62 round you are speaking of. If it is the 7.62x39 that is fired by AK-47s and variants, then no. The 7.62x39 has an arcing, almost rainbow-like trajectory and mediocre accuracy at best. It does deliver more energy, with it's 123 grain (avg) weight as opposed to M855s 62 grains. But long range accuracy (and hit probability) is inferior to the M855.

If you mean 7.62 NATO or 7.62x54r then yes, it's all true.

It has to be taken into account that the enemy has no standard issue weapon. Therefore, our troops may face any of these three 7.62 rounds in Iraq or Afghanistan.

I would still like to see our military adopt the 6.8 SPC round. It doesn't give much more range than 5.56, but it almost doubles the energy of the M855. It also doesn't require our military to buy all new weapons. An M4 can be converted to 6.8 with just a new barrel, bolt assembly and mags.

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Old 04-03-2010, 01:12 AM
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I've heard horror stories from our grunts, convoy traveling at 45 MPH a single shot from an AK47 at 600 meters hit the driver in the head while moving. I have no idea how that is remotely possible.
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Old 04-03-2010, 05:29 AM
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My question to this issue would be this. What happened to all the M-14's the military had? When I was in Korea in 88-90 our battalion had over 100 M-14's. I know because we had to count them every saturday. then in Desert Storm my LRS team was issued 2 M-14's for distance shooting in the desert. We left them behind because in survealience if you shoot at distance you die, its as simple as that. Now that said couldnt the government bust out the old M-14's and issue those to troops in theater without the fancy high speed low drag accounterments of the EBR and add the range they need now instead of later?
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:08 AM
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Maglips took the words right out of my mouth. lol. Oh, and i can't say for sure, but i believe that most of the m14s in the armys arsenal were either sold to other countries or dismantled. there is still alot of them in armories all over the country, but i think that a hefty percentage of them are just gone. that's unfortunate tho because with a few mods they become an EBR and are EXTREMELY effective DMR rifles.
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Old 04-03-2010, 11:52 AM
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I agree, it would be nice to see some heavier rounds then the 5.56 in use by our troops.

Also, I'm diggin' the Multicam in the picture!
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:48 PM
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Time for me to chime in I guess...

Most of you know that I was a DM during my time in the Army. I made a thread about it a while ago if you want to look. Whenever these discussions come up, or discussions about real steel shooting in general for that matter, I usually try to stay out of them. The reason is that most people who post up comments tend to have no idea what they are talking about, and rather than start up a flame war, I stay my hand. This so far, though, is still following a consistent line of good comments, so I feel that it is okay for me to input. What I am going to write is going to be a little wordy, but I am going to try to lay it out so it is easy to read... Sorry in advance.

When I am referring to the 7.62 and the 5.56 I am referring to the NATO standard rounds.

I was a DM for 14 months on a tour in Iraq, from January 2004 through March of 2005. I was trained to easily hit targets out to 600 meters with both the M16 series of rifles as well as the M14 series of rifles. Under the position of DM, my average engagement distance was right around 500 meters. My longest confirmable hit was 637 meters in Fallujah, November of 2004, and the rifle I used was my M16 and a 4x Trijicon ACOG with a 4x magnifier.

Distance shooting is hard under any circumstance, let alone under high stress. If you look at the average soldier using the standard form of marksmanship testing today, he will typically score about 26-30 hits out of 40 shots, Marines also fall under about the same ratio. These are pop up targets that range for 4 seconds at 50 meters out to 300 meters for about 10 seconds which randomly pop up. With soldiers missing about 25% of the time in standard shooting at ranges, weapons designers in the Vietnam era saw a need to maximize lethality while giving the soldier/Marine the most ammo he could carry. There were only an average of one enemy KIA for roughly 30,000 rounds fired on a more conservative estimates at the time. The military was looking for a new rifle to replace the M14 as well, because of the M14's HORRIBLE accuracy on full auto and quick successive shots on semi auto. The M14 of the Vietnam era had a standard rifle stock, not like today with the EBR's collapsible one, and this causes a pivot point. When the rifle was fired recoil would cause the rifle to pivot at the point of the firing hand, causing muzzle rise. These brought about what we have today.

Enter the 5.56 and the M16. With the 5.56 a person can carry literally almost twice as much ammo due to its smaller size and weight. With a higher average muzzle velocity compared to standard 7.62 rounds at the time, force on impact was only slightly less than the slower but heavier 7.62 ( remember that MxA=F where the 7.62 has advantage in mass but the 5.56 has advantage in speed). This equation has changed dramatically during the years, and the modern 7.62 has definitely widened its margin of power since the 1960's. But the 5.56 is no slouch.

With the facts out of the way, time for me to say MY opinions. These are opinions, but I would like to think that based on my experiences ( your milage may vary ) that they are founded in some fact as seen from my perspective.

1. Everyone in the military should NOT be carrying 7.62 battle rifles. On auto, the 7.62 is too inaccurate. But my main reason comes from its power. When you step up in bullet power, you turn things that would have been cover for smaller rounds into concealment. Cover protects, but concealment only hides. During high stress engagements, it would be a terrifying thing for 7.62 rounds to be going through nearly everything. This over-penetration is the cause of a large percentage of civilian casualties on the battlefield as well as a percentage of the fratricides. I just don't feel that EVERY person in the military is mature enough to handle that kind of power effectively.

2. I would love to see the 6.8 become the standard some day. It is a great round, and my experience with it has been nothing but positive. But, as of right now, it is a bullet that is very expensive. So will we be seeing it any time soon? No, probably not. It would be cheaper than buying all new weapons as well, since ( like Maglips said ^ up ^ there somewhere) you would only need to buy pieces of the system and not the whole weapon. It floats that grey area between the 5.56 and the 7.62, and in my mind would be the perfect solution.

3. Poor accuracy at extreme ranges is coming from two points. Stress which is obvious, but also the weapons that most soldiers are carrying. The M4, with its thin profile barrel that is shorter (at 14 inches) than the M16's thicker 20 inch barrel is not really designed for longer range shooting. Most of the types of units that are in direct combat operations in Afghanistan are either SF or combat arms ( infantry ) type units. When you are outfitting a "go to war" load out for a soldier, especially a combat arms soldier, you have to balance weight, firepower, and mobility. The adage is that you can have any two but not all three. So the M4 gives lighter weight, and better mobility than the m16 or any 7.62 rifle that is in standard issue. That has meant that firepower ( range/ stopping power/ accuracy ) has been sacrificed somewhat. I think that just re-outfitting some of these units with more M16's than M4's with nicer optics packages would help alleviate some of the problems right there.

Wrap up:

The 5.56 is not going anywhere. It is a good round ( read: not great but good ). You get more rounds per soldier, great accuracy and muzzle velocity. It is easier for the average soldier to control and keep on target during sustained shooting. And having multiple weapons systems firing the same round means that ammo is interchangeable. But, I would still love to see more 7.62 rifles in squads/ platoons for that range and power though. With a little more specialized training, marksmen with 7.62 rifles would fill the void between the standard rifleman and a specialized sniper very well. That's my opinions anyway, and like I said, your mileage may vary.
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Old 04-03-2010, 04:31 PM
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Excellent post blacksheep. Your posts are always well thought out and informative. Thank you for sharing your experience.
The only thing I would like to say is that 6.8 is only expensive because of limited competition in the marketplace, not because it's expensive to manufacture. The only companies that manufacture brass for the round are Remington, Hornady and Silver State Armory. If it were adopted, prices would bottom out because every ammo manufacturer would make it. Still, do I expect it to be adopted soon?... No. Mainly because of bureaucratic BS.
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Old 04-03-2010, 07:37 PM
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Thanks Maglips, I appreciate that.

I guess you had a one up on me when it came to the 6.8 anyway, I only thought there were 2 manufacturers of it, not 3... I had no idea Silver State Armory produced the 6.8, I knew about Remington and Hornady though. Like I said, the 6.8 would be my favorite solution to just about every problem the military as a whole has with its weapons ammo.

Blackheep's perfect solution:
The AR rifle is not a mud gun like the AK due to its gas system. Improper maintenance on the part of the soldier/marine equals trouble when the AR jams and double feeds. Solution for me would a piston driven AR style platform with ambidextrous controls in 6.8. Same training would apply for older soldiers/marines to be grandfathered in, more range accuracy and stopping power than the 5.56, lighter than the 7.62 and more controllable, and of course piston operated for longevity and ability to be trashed.

Ahh, one can dream... If that came around, I think just about every one would be happy.
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
Our military are some of the best marksmans in the world. A standard infantryman/woman are well equipped in weaponary. It's the training behind that weapon thats makes them the best.

Remember that.......
Women aren't allowed in infantry
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:55 PM
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women aren't supposed to be in combat either but thats working out oh so well.....
In the wars we are fighting today, women are on the front lines and shooting just like the men they fight along side
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Old 04-03-2010, 11:03 PM
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On what black said, I think that I would take accuracy over stopping power. If you can't hit what you're aiming at, then why shoot? I have very little real steel experience, but I do have some logic. I also agree with what black said, that more units should be outfitted with the longer barreled brother of the M4, the M16 (variants). What the M16 does lack for modern combat is a retractable/foldable stock. If we could just start equipping issue M16's with the M4 retracting stock, we would be killing two birds with one stone. M4's are great for what they're designed to do (small, easily manuverable and handled weapons, while still maintaining some degree of accuracy), but they are just not what it takes for mid-long range engagements. Given that the 5.56 is a very accurate round, I think we (America) should take advantage of this and not be ignorant. Just my opinion... like I said, little real-steel knowledge so please correct me if I'm wrong in any way. I would love to learn something new.
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Old 04-03-2010, 11:25 PM
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I don't think it's a matter of platforms, more so actual rounds.
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Old 04-03-2010, 11:53 PM
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Women aren't allowed in infantry
Infantry aren't the only people issued rifles, sweetheart.
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