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Old 05-19-2009, 02:13 PM
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Citations

In my recent blog entitled: "Why "opinion" posts are frowned upon....", Darkstar brought up a good point that often people giving opinions have no actual experience with the product that they are reviewing. (Although I'm afraid I disagree with the rest of his post, but that is another story). In the academic world, when papers are written (or other people's work referenced), a citation is required, or the paper is considered to have contained plagiarism. Using citations are an easy way to see who has actual experience with what they are talking about, as well as being able to tell what level of experience they have.

From now on, at the end of my posts, I'm going to start citing where I got the information I am referencing. Who will join me in this?
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:21 PM
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Seeing as i dont frequently write essays on topics, i dont believe that i would need to cite multiple sources, but will if i get information to back up my opinions. Im in!
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:34 PM
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yes i like the idea. im with ya.

one thing though. i like the fact that when i google something about airsoft i see airsoftohio coming up more and more frequently.

i think when citing someones work you should put their username and the site you found it on.. but put the info here on ao vs putting a link to it. actually having the written word makes ao far more searchable .. and in the end more beneficial to the person browsing for info.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:36 PM
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I like the idea as well*


*reference Sidd's brain May 19th 2009
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:41 PM
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You're making a simple post way too complicated. How am I supposed to cite something when I don't exactly remember the source? If you're going to do this, then the rest of the post should be written like a paper, thus no mistakes.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:46 PM
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If you don't remember where you got the information, it probably isn't 100% right. If you can prove you're right, do it. Otherwise, don't post information.

Personal experience can be listed as a source, you know. This isn't mandatory, it is a suggestion. A good one at that.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:58 PM
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Technically, isn't this whole idea an "opinion post"? Personally, I like that type of post because people can put forth their perspective on things.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:00 PM
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Vadericpool,

That is entirely besides the point that this is an "opinion post." It is a suggestion. It's not a post saying something incredibly objective.

After several years of reading opinions of people, you start to realize that many of those opinions are uneducated or biased.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:17 PM
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I agree that there has been a surge of uninformed responses to technical questions on this site; however, if we are having people cite other posters on different forums it is possible we will be citing other misinformation. So I ask, what in the airsoft world makes for a legit source of information? Other posters? Retailer sites? Youtube reviews?

While there are some dead straight answers such as compatibility answer and such that can be proven right or wrong, the technical side of airsoft such as the performance of internals upgrades, tightbores, heavier BB's,(etc..) truly IS opinion and preference. I personally may have had better luck with a Madbull barrel over a JBU barrel. Or a Systema over Prometheus. I could cite 2000 other forum posts across the internet that promote Systema, but does that make them legit? Or is it simply spreading misinformation/ignorance?

*Note: Do not start a Systema vs. other brand debate. This is purely theoretical.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:25 PM
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I like to read peoples opinions on different issues, If I wanted to read a formal papper or whatever I would go back to school. This is a forum for a great sport and alot of what I have learned has been on others opinion I just gather several and take it at face value. Not bashing you Loki just adding my 2 cents.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonicUnicorn2 View Post
I agree that there has been a surge of uninformed responses to technical questions on this site; however, if we are having people cite other posters on different forums it is possible we will be citing other misinformation. So I ask, what in the airsoft world makes for a legit source of information? Other posters? Retailer sites? Youtube reviews?

While there are some dead straight answers such as compatibility answer and such that can be proven right or wrong, the technical side of airsoft such as the performance of internals upgrades, tightbores, heavier BB's,(etc..) truly IS opinion and preference. I personally may have had better luck with a Madbull barrel over a JBU barrel. Or a Systema over Prometheus. I could cite 2000 other forum posts across the internet that promote Systema, but does that make them legit? Or is it simply spreading misinformation/ignorance?

*Note: Do not start a Systema vs. other brand debate. This is purely theoretical.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:52 PM
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I think that in specific instances the citation of sources is very useful, and it most definately adds credibility to the poster of the information. I fear though that most people will not know what information they should cite and what information they should not. I dont think every post with information in it should be cited, but if asked where you got the information you should always be prepared to share your sources.

But yes, I will join you if I feel the need arises to cite my sources.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:56 PM
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The idea behind citations is just to back up claims with some documentation. If you read something somewhere that stated XYZ, wouldn't it be good to be able to go back to that original source and see if indeed was good information or a crock of bull?

No, citations will not stop wrong or inaccurate information. Simply read any academic paper written in the early 1900s in a good number of fields and discover how, while the authors did a lot of research and citations, they proved to be way off by contemporary standards. If I wanted to, I could cobble enough research to write a paper on how the Holocaust was staged, how Elvis is alive or that 9/11 was done by the government (see that BS Loose Change video if you want a perfect example of a buttload of citations with crap information.)

Loki also isn't suggesting that this be an official rule, only that he is going to start citing information and hopes that others will join him. To be honest, if you want to be taken seriously, why WOULDN'T you cite information that wasn't based on firsthand experience?

I support this notion and will also include citations if I make a post that warrants them.
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BDMK View Post
I like to read peoples opinions on different issues, If I wanted to read a formal papper or whatever I would go back to school. This is a forum for a great sport and alot of what I have learned has been on others opinion I just gather several and take it at face value. Not bashing you Loki just adding my 2 cents.
Just because people like to express and explain their opinions with long, informative posts isn't a bad thing that only applies to school; it helps people to take you seriously and make you look like you might know what are talking about.
Example:
Which would you feel more informed and believe more:
1. OMG! Thur iz lik gren graz n stuf ovr thur.
Or:
2. The grass is much greener on the other side of the fence.

My point exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post
Vadericpool,

That is entirely besides the point that this is an "opinion post." It is a suggestion. It's not a post saying something incredibly objective.

After several years of reading opinions of people, you start to realize that many of those opinions are uneducated or biased.
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Old 05-19-2009, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert-Fox View Post
Which would you feel more informed and believe more:
1. OMG! Thur iz lik gren graz n stuf ovr thur.
Or:
2. The grass is much greener on the other side of the fence.
That is a great line. Gets the point across too. Having people do their own research and explaining what they found is good. But I think people need to explain their findings a little better. Take this post (http://www.airsoftohio.com/forums/sh...&highlight=end) about the Maruzen clones and upgrading. A fantastic post about different things he has tried and what has worked and what hasn't. There are some things in there about what he likes better (i.e. his opinion) but he has done enough research to back up everything he says. And if he is unsure about something he tells you in his post. Not saying to post a comment on a product you have to go into the detail he does in that post but at least know what you're talking about.
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Old 05-19-2009, 09:02 PM
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You do not tell Loki no.
Ha! That entirely depends on who you are my friend, lol. I don't ban people for disagreeing with me.
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:03 AM
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I too will join in on this effort, With the ultimate goal so that people with little experiance hop on and say

"get the CA M4 because that is what I own and it shoots crazy fast and I get uber 'kills' with it."

It would be nice if these type of "opinion" posts, especially about technical items, contains technical data inside the post i.e.

"The CA M4 X shoots XXX fps (airsoftgi.com) where as the TM M4 X shoots XXX fps (airsoftgi.com). This is why I chose the CA over the TM as I felt I got more bang for my buck"

Using technical data to support your statements will make you more respectable and less n00b.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:26 AM
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Unicorn i think the point is if you cite it then people can decide to agree with the information.

It seems that people are going to post about things they do not have first hand knowledge of. These posts don't have to be totally worthless. If they choose to cite their source then at least the reader can make an objective criticism of the information.

If you do not have first hand knowledge and you don't remember where you " heard tm hopups are ****e" don't post.

With a broad range of different manufacturers, styles of play, gear and kit crossing the globe, it is sometimes essential to confide in those you cannot meet in person.

Not to mention it's just good form to cite people if you can remember.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:59 AM
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I never post hearsay information about Airsoft unless it is known credible source, and I will cite where it came from. Otherwise I'm only posting about personal experiences or those of my team mates, which most of the AO community already knows personally.

I would like to see the neg rep use come back on this site. If a member starts to answer a post with, "I've heard that..." or "My brother's cousin has XYZ..." or "I read/saw on a website that..." that's my clue right there they don't have a credible source. They should be neg repped immediately with the comment, 'please revise with credible source'. Perhaps that will limit all the BS posts I now see on this site, and I'm sorry if this sounds inflammatory but 95% of it is coming from absolute n00bs with barely any experience to back up their claims. Just calling it like I see it.

So yeah Loki, I am with you.
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Old 05-20-2009, 10:50 AM
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I agree citing your information will make researching your topic more easy, thus less time spent.I'm in
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Old 05-20-2009, 11:03 AM
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@ Nitemare: The technical specs would be nice, but it should be factory specs not retail store specs. One thing I've noticed with retail stores is the lack of information on the item.
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Old 05-20-2009, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMarine View Post
@ Nitemare: The technical specs would be nice, but it should be factory specs not retail store specs. One thing I've noticed with retail stores is the lack of information on the item.
Fair enough, that does make sense but even just retail specs would be far ahead of having no data at all.
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Old 05-20-2009, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki View Post
In my recent blog entitled: "Why "opinion" posts are frowned upon....", Darkstar brought up a good point that often people giving opinions have no actual experience with the product that they are reviewing. (Although I'm afraid I disagree with the rest of his post, but that is another story).
Ummm, how can you both agree and disagree on a unidirectional post??

I have no problems at all with opinion posts, but that statement comes with a few stipulations. Opinion posts don't bother me as long as the people that reply have firsthand knowledge on the subject and that knowledge is posted constructively so that it adds value to the thread. I don't believe that requiring people to give citations to their posts is going to fix anything, because then the information being discussed in the citation becomes heresay, and you're going to end up having people once again chiming in on topics they would otherwise have no business discussing, only because they found some information somewhere to cite. However if you do have firsthand knowledge, and you want to use a citation to futher support your reply, then fine. It's just not always needed. The vast majority of the time, I post my own firsthand knowledge, therefore I don't need to cite anything, because I am the source.

As others here have said, and as I just mentioned, I don't reply to a topic unless I have firsthand knowledge of the topic, or at least a very educated opinion on the subject. I don't answer topics and start blabbing about something that I really have no clue about. The latter is what the problem is. Some people like to talk, and talk and talk and talk, and they can't shut up even if you tell them to, and they'd probably keep talking even if you shot them between the eyes. There are people just like that in the forums too. They have to post and post, or they have to chime in on different topics in order to make themselves feel important or trustworthy, even though they're not contributing any real information. This kind of behavior is definitely frowned upon.

Why don't you make a rule stating "Opinion posts are okay, so long as those people replying to the opinion requests have first hand knowledge than can contribute to the post in a positive way". And, when I say "in a positive way", I don't mean that people must always give a positive review/opinion of XYZ topic. Obviously giving people information about the topic's downsides can also be a positive contribution to a thread, so long as the knowledge is passed from someone who has firsthand knowledge about the topic. I've been saying it for years, and the solution is quite simple. If you don't know, don't post. Mods can prune worthless posts and replies and leave it at that.

I can also agree that they way in which some people word their request for opinions can also be grounds for having a post pruned. Like, "Hey guys, what do you think of this gun...?". That's not the way to start asking for opinions.

Anyway, here I'm writing a book on something rather trivial, so I'm going to wrap it up by staying the following. We seem to keep having these same discussions year after year, and honestly, if the moderators haven't figured out yet that things arren't going to change, then I don't know why you still choose to moderate. Do you guys (mods) forget that we've had these conversations before?? Do you forget that there are always going to be new players asking for opinions? Do you forget that there will ALWAYS be new players asking "what is the best gun" and other similar questions? If you are forgetting, if you don't care, or if you can't contructively guide new members, then it's time to do something else?

Darkstar out.

P.S. I'm not calling you out specifically Loki, so don't worry. I'm just saying that there are mods who could care less.
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Old 05-20-2009, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NH_Nitemare View Post
Fair enough, that does make sense but even just retail specs would be far ahead of having no data at all.
Yes sir. Either way would be outstanding.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkstar View Post
If you are forgetting, if you don't care, or if you can't contructively guide new members, then it's time to do something else?
That's just the thing, Darkstar, Loki is asking for input and trying to encourage people to provide first hand instead of hearsay or "what my cousin's brother's girlfriend's nephew said he read some guy heard was said."

Second point, you can't always use the same way to "constructively guide" members all the time. You may use entirely different methods that have helped you, but moderators aren't always able to respond in that same manner.

Its not really the moderator's job to help people on that basis, Dark. The moderator is ultimately there to clean up after people and to help keep the peace.

Now maybe you are confusing Moderator with Mentor, and that's fairly simple to do. But moderators try to operate within the guidelines Admin has given often with highly frustrating results.

Since you have stated in the past you have no desire to moderate, telling the moderators how they should think and do things is really the same issue Loki was talking about - people giving advice without having actual firsthand knowledge on it. Its great you have an opinion on how mods should do things, but until you've actually done that job, unfortunately, it's just an ideal thought.

I mean this with no disrespect to you, Darkstar, if you want to see mods do their jobs differently, then step up and show them some leadership. Otherwise, talk is cheap.
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