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Old 01-11-2010, 06:13 PM
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I love this thread a lot and I’m sure that it will definitely transfer over to my squad DM and a kid who thinks he is a lone wolf. This should be locked and referred to as a handbook for proper functioning fire teams on modern battlefields. It has helped a lot thank you.
no good military decision has ever been made from a swivel chair...
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Old 02-06-2010, 11:13 PM
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i pride myself as an airsoft sniper and i love sniping i mean in an unprofessional game i have 550 fps spring but like pro ops i use a 390 spring which drops me bout 50 feet. WOW!! that means i can only engage about as far as my SAW can so i decided until im 18 and im in the ARMY ill save sniping for those who can use a 500 fps gun but the role of sniper is importatnt in airsoft with good comms a sniper can coordinate enemy movement as well as DM is important because with a tight barrel and a good hopup the extra 20 ft is a magor diference especially the accuracy side too so black sheep i love this post im very satisfied with this it clears up all the b****ing and bickering on the snipers suck dms are pointless this is an eye opener and on any of my post i will highly recomend this link

OHHHH and black sheep thank you for serving
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Old 02-07-2010, 03:39 AM
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You shouldn't thank me, I was "volun-told" to go anyway. Any one else would have in my shoes.

My thing with the whole "snipers vs. DM" in airsoft is that the scale is so small. I try to stress to people to try out the good old rifleman first. Then, when you think you have it down, move to a specialty.

The big difference between the DM and the sniper though, and this can't be stressed enough, is the squad. DM's move with their fire-team, squad, platoon and provide counter sniper and target of opportunity engagement. They help crack the tough problems without endangering the group, which is the priority for them. Sniping on the other hand is mostly about observing enemy movements, coordinating with higher command about intel, calling in air-strikes and artillery ( real life ), and taking targets of opportunity when the chance arises. They are very different from one another, but pull from the same skill sets.

Good thing about airsoft though, is that the hits are not permanent! SO... Try stuff out. Find what you like. Enjoy it. And try to be a beneficial part of the team with whatever role you fill.

Have fun out there guys...

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Old 02-07-2010, 10:37 AM
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Well done.

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Old 07-03-2010, 07:57 PM
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Thanks, man. I'm the DM for my airsoft recon unit and I get called a "sniper" constantly and pisses me off beyond comprehension. I'll have to show the next moron your post
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by blacksheep_p View Post
I think it was a typo, because a 200 yard shot is a close shot with iron sights for people in basic training (Marines and Army). Either way I get what he was trying to say, Airsoft sniper rifles just do not dramatically outrange their AEG brothers, and they would have to be significantly and maybe dangerously more powerful to fill their roll closer to the way a real steel sniper would.

To be honest though talking about it now is way out dated, the last sensible post in here was in August. At least you, Spartan-120, were more on point than some of the other stuff that I have seen get deleted out of here a little while ago... Something about midgets I think?
Execelent thread Blacksheep! this helped me alot and will be able to deff help the newer and older players thinking about being a DM
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:22 AM
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Thumbs up

very nice work.
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:13 PM
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100 yards is pushing it... but is possible. 150, haven't seen that.
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:29 PM
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Great thread, it really helped me out a lot!

Hopefully, it will clear up a lot of the sniper/DM questions like it is intended to do.
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Old 04-18-2011, 05:19 AM
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Execelent over Black Sheep! It helped me a lot and will be able to DEFF help players, new and old are thought to be a DM
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:47 AM
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Blacksheep - first, thanks for your service. That's the most important part of my post.

Excellent info!
"I came, I shot, I reloaded, I regassed, I shot again...."

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Old 04-18-2011, 11:57 AM
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This is a very good thread.

People need to realize that 'true snipers' have no place in airsoft. The range is just not consistent, nor the accuracy.

DM is your role, support is your class. Learn it. Support does not mean run off and hide on your own.

Most DMRs in airsoft have good accuracy and decent range. But usually lack ROF. An example would be the RS SVD, which I roll with fairly often. It can reach out there and touch people pretty accurately, but if I were to try to 'snipe' with it alone, I would get eaten up. When you place yourself out of the 'Lone wolf deep undercover force scout recon deluxe navy seal super SWAT sniper' and put yourself as someone in your squad who has a little more accuracy and range than the rest of your members, that's when you become a powerful tool.

A well rounded squad with SUPPORT roles can put a LOT of hurt on the field. During one of the Night Archers I played on the black team and we had my DMR and an M60, the rest were normal rifleman. We knew our time and place and we put a lot of hurt on the enemy we came across. Why? Because we were a well rounded SQUAD that worked TOGETHER.

Quit running off alone and link up with a squad. Anyone with a DMR that links up with a squad is a good player, in my opinion. They are also very useful on the field when with a squad. Those who try to run off on their own are useless and will never get far until they learn.

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Old 04-18-2011, 09:03 PM
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Great post, everyone. Good thread too.

The thing I've noticed with the few field games I've attended, is that people don't seem to care. A true DM, in my opinion, is one that actually takes care of his gear and treats his rifle like his son.

At a local field game, I found an A&K SVD with a real-steel SVD sight just laying on the ground. I later found out that it was upgraded internally. About $300 in a gun, just LAYING ON THE GROUND. The kid even left without it. He didn't earn my respect.

I play as a rifleman, that's it. The amount of bolt-action kiddies I see makes me worry. Some of them can't even use their rifles.

Now, I do have respect for those that take the time and sacrifice their gameplay to help their team. As for the kids with the CoD skillz, I regret standing beside them and wasting my ammunition.
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What do you mean this thread is off topic? I said abortion was wrong and I stand by it.

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Old 04-19-2011, 01:04 AM
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I think it is great that people are reading this, and still getting useful information. It is glad to hear that typing it all out was not a waste of time!

A key to remember, as Spetsnaz noted, is that no matter what role you fill you are there for a team. Airsoft, much like real life, is about working together for a common goal. If you are a support gunner, DM, medic, or rifleman; you have to work together to make the common good. Working together will be the key to the DM role, as well as all others.
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:44 PM
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Great Post Black sheep. Really enjoyed reading that

"My Definition of Success: The point where you have overcame all your Fears!!" -xSmokinJaysx
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:21 PM
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If you read the rules xSmokinJaysx that would be classified as a necropost. Dont post on old threads that havnt been alive for a while.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:30 PM
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I don't think that applies for sticky threads, Lenahan. Though this didn't really accomplish anything, so it wasn't really needed, it did bring up a good thread.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:06 PM
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This was very informative, Thanks Black Sheep, it looks like how I run as a squads DM is the right way to do it.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:50 PM
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The Gun-Runner, sorry didnt notice it was a sticky.
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Old 06-16-2012, 02:50 PM
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This is a fantastic post! Thank you blacksheep for your service and insight. I would however like to state that a "sniper" role in airsoft can still be pertinent. Yes the range may not be any better than a well layed out dm rifle, a person with great patience and stealth can be quite useful.

The team i am on has two people who consider themselves snipers. Running bolt action, ghille's, the works. They are very good at their job. They take out opposing players with deadly accuracy and are so quite and sneeky they are rarely ever hit. To the point that we won vip at a roseville game simply because of those two. Not a single opposing player could advance on their objective because if they left cover one of the two hit them.

However truth be told it really is a position that shouldnt be jumped into and i agree that starting as a rifleman is a great idea, but there are a few out there that really have the talent in stealth to pull off being a successful sniper. But that is super rare. I consider it a miracle that we have two on our team that are capable of this. But in all reality a dm is where someone with better range and who is a good shot should advance when thinking about testing a specialty role. But in our case, whenafter a day of airsofting and our two snipers have had three saftey kills each and multiple people shot in the back by a sniper where you have no idea where the hell they are, i can see a sniper being an effective role.
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Old 09-12-2016, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by blacksheep_p View Post
Lately the amount of "sniper vs. DM" threads that have been coming up have been getting on everyones nerves to one degree or another. I know that most people around here have some idea of the difference between the two, but let's pretend that we don't for a minute and have a discussion of what it means to be either a "sniper" or a "Designated Marksmen".

I know what some of you are thinking, "what does this guy know?" I like to think that I have some experience, so I would like to share some of it with you. In December, I completed my 6 years in the Ohio Army National Guard. I know it was the Guard, but I wanted to go to school and serve, so meh. In 2004 I was deployed for Operation Iraqi Freedom 2. For our training period I was singled out, I had the highest marksmen score in the entire company ( 40/40 ) and was the highest in close quarters marksmenship (It was rudimentary at the time, and is probably invalid to todays training. 38/40). Because of this I was pushed into the Designated Marksmen Course. From there I qualified 38/40 out to 600+ meters with both an M-14 and an M16A2. All of these scores were averaged over a string of 3 for each training circuit. I served in this position, as well as a heavy weapons operator for our convoy operations, and a sometime Combat Life Saver. I served in all of these positions for my 14 month tour, and remained there for the rest of my enlistment which ended December 23, 2008.

1. Misconceptions of the purpose of the "Sniper".
Snipers, both in the Army, as well as the Marine Corps. are very specialized tools. That being said, they are not used lightly and are not wasted. With thousands of hours of training, and some of the best tactics and gear available, Snipers are the scalpel to the sledge hammer that is the Infantry. Specialized Rifles, as well as very specialized uses and tactics mean that they are a valuable tool that is not wasted. Snipers are not usually mobile troops. They are static the majority of their time, and they use their exceptional gear to remain hidden. Most snipers go their entire careers without firing over a dozen shots in anger. This role can never fully transfer into the realm of airsoft however. Due to the nature of our weapons and their ammunition both the range and the accuracy of the real steel world can never be accomplished over your automatic brethren. If you are not mature enough to not shoot, then this is not the job for you in the airsoft world. Sniper in the airsoft world is really for recon and reporting of enemy positions. Only the most patient and mature people need apply.

2. A Designated Marksmen is a position not a rifle.
A little naggle of mine is that everyone ( not in the literal but the figurative ) uses the "DM" to describe a weapon. This is simply not true. A DM is by definition is " a soldier posessing above average ability in the skill of marksmenship. He is attached to a fire team to provide long range, highly accurate fire, consistently. He does so on behalf of the element of which he is attached." ( Okay I might have paraphrased it a little, I am bad at quotes!) A DM does not become such because of the weapon that he is carrying. To be a DM is to be one with a TEAM of men and women. You become the long arm of the element, making its pimp hand to reach places and distances the enemy never thought possible. Since you are part of a team, you are still a riflemen first. You breach, you clear, you overwatch, and you secure. I believe that the role of DM is far more important to the team dynamics of airsoft, than the lone wolf style that "sniping" brings to the table ( not to say that there are not some individuals that break this ). In a pinch a DM can be called upon to make the difficult shot. Maybe the first shot at the edge of the engagement range to take out that heavy gunner before the push to the objective. To be a true DM, you have to have brains, precision, and above all a caring for the team as a whole. If you think you have what it takes.

3. The DM rifle, is it special or is it just you?
What was the most successful long range rifle I ever had the privilege to use? Was it my M-14? That hunk of Vietnam era slag that smashed my favorite ACOG, and made it hard to hold with its monstrous weight of both its form and ammo? Well if you haven't guessed yet, no. My favorite rifle was a little number that I named "Stephanie" and she was a FN made M16A2 rifle. Nothing special but a Z-RIS with an AimPoint and an EOTech Magnifier. No special "hot loads" or AP ammo. Just me and my baby. So that begs the question, do you need 733t hand cannon of doom modified for 500 FPS? The short of it is no. You don't need the special rifle to get the job done, though it could help. People who want to be long range monsters need to work on their shooting, technique, and their field craft. The weapon will fall into place afterward. Simple upgrades like a tightbore and some hop work will get most rifles ( like a TM M14, those things are ridiculous stock ) to the ranges and groupings that they desire, while still leaving the rifle calm enough to be used with the rest of the riflemen in the team. But that being said, if you want to build that "hand cannon" eventually, then go for it. Your weapon has to fill that forth kind of cool for you and only you. But if you specialize too much you leave the riflemen and the squad behind and move into lone wolf sniping again, and that is not who a true DM is.

In Conclusion.
Lately the flood of young bloods has caused the ever popular "howz can I b 733t snipez?" threads to grow like weeds and has gotten everyone in an uproar. I can see the pain in the threads and the frustrations in the mods' words. I felt that as a trained DM, you guys would want to know more about what you were telling these young bloods to be, and maybe have it written down for future n00bs to not find when they don't use the search function. If anyone has any thing they would like to add such as practical advice, upgrade options, or maybe your own DM build and how you use it then feel free. If you have any questions of myself, also feel free. Please no opinions, try to stick to facts. We want to help, not hurt the n00bs with their fragile sense of reality!

( Steps off soapbox )
Ahhh that felt good to get that all out!

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This was very informative and thank you for your service.
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Old 09-12-2016, 08:12 AM
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from the grave

I do remember this post (back in teen years for me) and it was a good read as I was looking into different setups to run.

Still happens today with the younger crowd. Might share this on FB for the kiddies.
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Old 09-13-2016, 02:17 AM
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Wow blast from the past. Still relevent tho
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designated marksmen, long range, milsim, rifle, sniper

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