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View Poll Results: What rules and moderation methods should be implemented on AO?
No opinion request threads, (ie "What gun should I get?") 54 36.73%
Force searching before posting. No questions that are easily answered by research. 52 35.37%
Correct grammar and spelling should be attempted. No "net speak". 106 72.11%
Pointless threads, threads that do not add to knowledge base of AO should be deleted. 64 43.54%
Members should be able to post whatever they want, as long as it is not offensive. 29 19.73%
Spelling and grammar are not important. 11 7.48%
Strict enforcement of the rules. Zero tolerance policy. 20 13.61%
Lenient enforcement of the rules. Only the most blatant transgressions should be addressed. 40 27.21%
Moderate enforcement of the rules. Give some leeway for new members to get accustomed to the rules. 79 53.74%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old 11-20-2008, 05:56 PM
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Browncoat, sometimes martial law is needed to get things back in order. It doesn't mean it will stay that way indefinitely. But sometimes you need to get peoples attention.

As for your other two points, the first on is not an issue, necroposting is fine as long as you contributing to, updating, or furthering the topic.

as for 2, locking a thread here is the same as deleting a thread. We used to just delete the pointless threads, but people would think their thread just disappeared so they started a new one. So now we lock them so they know. We make preemptive strikes, because once things get out of hand many times the damage is already done. Most of us here know each other in real life, or will at some point. Unlike many other forums where everyone is "internet brave", what is said here can cause problems on the field. Because of this, there is certain etiquette and decorum that is needed that you might not be familiar with on other forums.

However, this thread is not really to debate, but to let your opinion be known, I know your opinion, it is quite clear. That is why your previous thread on this topic was locked. You made your case, there was nothing more to be said. Sorry if you took offense at that.
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  #27  
Old 11-20-2008, 06:00 PM
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I think the biggest thing I notice here is the language, spelling and grammar.

You can text or chat or whatever on your phone. Use real words and real sentences here. It makes it very difficult to understand what people are asking when there is so much of it.

When you go off to college or the working world - it simply isn't tolerated. In fact, I won't hire someone who treats the interview like a chat session.

I'm a new user myself and I strive to search, then ask. If I screw something up then I'd appreciate someone mentioning it to me - no problem. I have learned a great deal from the people on this forum - I appreciate it. Thanks for your efforts no matter what you decide.

See you on the field.
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  #28  
Old 11-20-2008, 06:21 PM
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Personally, I'm encouraged that this question is even being discussed. When the issue came up previously it got pretty quickly squished, and I am relieved that we are taking this seriously, at least.

I haven't been around here long enough to know what to do about this, and so I'm not going to voice uninformed opinions Still, I'm glad we're having this discussion, and I hope it yields results.
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Last edited by sventhewarrior; 11-20-2008 at 06:35 PM.
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  #29  
Old 11-20-2008, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
I disagree, while it might be a legit question, so is "What is the meaning of life?".

There are literally hundreds of AEGs on the market. Who can say which one of them has the most reliable gearbox? Not I, and not even the most knowledgeable smiths I know.

For example, I would say it was the TM FAMAS. Of course I am biased, because that is my gun and it hasn't failed in the 7 or 8 years that I have used it. But that is anecdotal. How does that really help the person asking the question?
You just proved what I was saying :P. If I saw a post saying it hasn't failed in 7-8 years, I would buy that damn gun! Generic "what gun is best" threads, with NO specific reference, are the threads that should be deleted.

Also, if I asked, which gun is best? KWA M4, or TM M4? That would be a thread lock. If I saw "Which gun has a more reliable gearbox? KWA M4 or TM M4?", that IS a topic worth discussing.

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS SIMPLY AN EXAMPLE TO ILLUSTRATE THE POINT, NOT AN ACTUAL EXAMPLE. Sorry, had to make that clear before it gets out of hand .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texx
Which gun has the most reliable gearbox for what exactly?

Upgades? Durability? Looking shiny? Abuse? Being filled with candy?

If you don't even know which area you want reliability in, then giving you an "anecdotal" answer is absolutely worthless.
Texx, your points are valid, but just doing a thread lock is counter-productive. Using the above example, here are a few points on why:

First, allow me to define Reliability. Reliability "is the ability of a person or system to perform and maintain its functions in routine circumstances, as well as hostile or unexpected circumstances." When a new guy asks that question and suddenly you say "Reliable gearbox for what exactly? Upgades? Durability? Looking shiny? Abuse? Being filled with candy?" and then lock his topic, that isn't because he didn't do his research, it's because you felt he/she didn't write the post to your standards. Or maybe, you assumed that it was another generic post. Yet, if you look at my definition, it was a perfectly acceptable question. Some people think of reliability as just that. Is it going to last? Also, if you go lock crazy, you prevent that person from being able to clarify what they mean. At the same time, he/she is sitting there wondering "What the hell happened?" and congrats, you turned away a potentially contributive person.

Yeah, there is a lot of knowledge out there about airsoft. However, have you considered how it looks to a brand new guy? It took me 6 months of research to find a gun that I liked, not because there is too much information, but because there is too much CONFLICTING information. People have a tendancy to ask people they trust for their opinions more than what a hundred other people say. Since airsoftohio.com has been a pretty good example of intelligent people, I would, in my case, ask that question to try and hear the answer from someone here, instead of placing my 200+ bucks down on the guy on airsoftblahblah.com who could be nothing more than a 12 year old with a mini-AEG.

Whether or not anyone likes to admit it, it's a DISCUSSION forum. If you lock a thread every time someone even tries to make an attempt at asking a question, then you might as well make this whole forum a newspaper column, where some 300 lb guy sits behind his desk trying to pawn off HIS opinions about everything.

In summary, I guess the point that I am really trying to make is, it's not that the forum is over-moderated, it's that it's being moderated too quickly. Give people a chance to expand on their thoughts. Yes, there are people who want the easy way to do everything. Yes, you have people that are attention whores. Is it worth turning away good people though who do want to make an effort, but need a little help? How about instead of just insta-locking the thread about the reliable gearbox, how about just pointing out that it is a vague question and let him/her elaborate on what they mean? Give a chance to discussion, sometimes surprising results come from it.

Thanks for reading my megapost.

EDIT: I am trying to give rep to sundown, but the button isn't showing up

Last edited by Anticept; 11-20-2008 at 07:00 PM.
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  #30  
Old 11-20-2008, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anticept View Post
Texx, your points are valid, but just doing a thread lock is counter-productive.
By closing the thread, the person is now encouraged to find an alternate method to obtain information. Knowing the forums encourage the use of other resources and information found on the site, they can move forward, thus utilizing those resources while serving the greater glory of the community.

If you keep posting repetitive topics, the time used for good, decent hardworking American Airsoft veterans is wasted. Each wasted hour spent answering and re-answering questions is another hour that Al Quaeda solidifies their terror hold over the world. The additional bandwidth used takes away from precious site features that could be offered like video or pictures, or even a chatroom for hitting on IM, talking about khan, and hentai....Posting repetitive topics supports terrorism!


Quote:
First, allow me to define Reliability. Reliability "is the ability of a person or system to perform and maintain its functions in routine circumstances, as well as hostile or unexpected circumstances." When a new guy asks that question and suddenly you say "Reliable gearbox for what exactly? Upgades? Durability? Looking shiny? Abuse? Being filled with candy?" and then lock his topic, that isn't because he didn't do his research, it's because you felt he/she didn't write the post to your standards.

Or maybe, you assumed that it was another generic post. Yet, if you look at my definition, it was a perfectly acceptable question. Some people think of reliability as just that. Is it going to last? Also, if you go lock crazy, you prevent that person from being able to clarify what they mean. At the same time, he/she is sitting there wondering "What the hell happened?" and congrats, you turned away a potentially contributive person.

Instead of locking, you could ask them what specifically they are looking for when it comes to reliability.
That's all well and good, but why should I have to then try to spoonfeed him more when I already told him there are other sources on the forum to find the answer.

I spent the time to learn how to use the forums. I spent countless hours sifting through thousands of posts on the topic. Why is it that I'm now expected to hand that information I learned to a person who is not even willing to go through the same trouble I did to learn it? That's lazy and unAmerican.

Now granted, I haven't run a forum for 7 years, and I'm not an expert on all things, but if a guy with an average intelligence and the desire to learn can figure this stuff out, there is no reason why I should not expect the same from the fellow members of the community. Now maybe my fellow members are not of average intelligence or have no desire to learn. Then maybe they don't belong here?

Quote:
Whether or not anyone likes to admit it, it's a DISCUSSION forum. If you lock a thread every time someone even tries to make an attempt at asking a question, then you might as well make this whole forum a newspaper column, where some 300 lb guy sits behind his desk trying to pawn off HIS opinions about everything.
Yes, Airsoft Ohio is a discussion forum. But it is also held to a certain community standard for discussion. Having 100 topics on the exact same issue quickly becomes a nightmare to manage. When you have people who actually are trying to use the search function, you end up with 100 individual items that have little to no real value.

If you allow all the repetitive topics, you make finding actual answers almost impossible. the boards becomes even worse shape and you actually have to delete stuff to keep it from using up your storage space.

Quote:
How about instead of just insta-locking the thread about the reliable gearbox..

How bout no?

Quote:
how about just pointing out that it is a vague question and let him/her elaborate on what they mean?
How bout the guy take the time to learn on his own using the resoruces available. Then comes back with informed questions?

Or maybe we should answer vague questions with "That's a stupid question, GTFO!"

Please note, this is simply a counterpoint to your illustrated example. I hope it was clear.
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Last edited by Texx; 11-20-2008 at 07:26 PM.
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  #31  
Old 11-20-2008, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texx View Post
By closing the thread, the person is now encouraged to find an alternate method to obtain information. Knowing the forums encourage the use of other resources and information found on the site, they can move forward, thus utilizing those resources while serving the greater glory of the community.

That is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Frankly, pressing the lock button is laziness. It doesn't encourage the newbie to do anything except leave and further irritate the community that feels they can't post anything. The above polling data should be some indicator (by an almost 2-to-1 margin so far) that the community doesn't want to be over moderated. Almost everything has been discussed before at some point. Just because a topic was discussed last month or last year doesn't mean that it's dead forever and should never be mentioned again.

Create a "catch all" thread or FAQ that has value. Take those meaningful posts you have researched so meticulously and put them all in one place where it's easy for people to find them. Then instead of just locking a topic, you can post a link to where they can find the information they're looking for.
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  #32  
Old 11-20-2008, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Browncoat View Post
That is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.
With close to 2000 posts, I'm sure I can top that. but you'll have to use the search function.

Quote:
Frankly, pressing the lock button is laziness. It doesn't encourage the newbie to do anything except leave and further irritate the community that feels they can't post anything. The above polling data should be some indicator (by an almost 2-to-1 margin so far) that the community doesn't want to be over moderated. Almost everything has been discussed before at some point. Just because a topic was discussed last month or last year doesn't mean that it's dead forever and should never be mentioned again.
That's hilarious. So in closing a thread rather than allowing it to clutter the boards or cause people tired of seeing the same thread over and over again start flaming the person, the moderator is lazy.

Quote:
Create a "catch all" thread or FAQ that has value. Take those meaningful posts you have researched so meticulously and put them all in one place where it's easy for people to find them. Then instead of just locking a topic, you can post a link to where they can find the information they're looking for.
How bout if you encourage other people to do that, rather than requiring the moderator to have to be the librarian too?

I have been on this current version of the board since its beginning and have personally contributed thousands of hours of work to this community. For some snit newb to tell me there isn't an answer to his question or then tell me he can't take the features that were put in place to find that work and then insist on me finding it for him is an insult to me and everyone else who has put the time in to contribute here.

That is sheer laziness.

If you want to talk to me about unfair, how bout the countless hours of work that the staff here put in to deal with garbage and crap on these boards. And then be accused of pulling gestapo crap by member who can't even bother to take the time to follow simple rules for posting here.

Or how bout the people who complain endlessly about how bad everything is, but refuse to contribute anything back.

You want help? Then start by helping yourself. Then ask me an intelligent question so that I don't have to spend more of my hobby time explaining all the basics to you. Basics which are so thoroughly covered on Google that you can find them in every language on the planet.

You want value? Start by contributing something of value to the community. Within your first dozen or so posts, you have seen fit to criticize just about everything we have worked to build here.

Now we need to give you more? And I'm lazy for closing a thread.
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  #33  
Old 11-20-2008, 07:54 PM
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Whats the problem? If you follow the rules, you dont have to worry about your thread being locked.
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  #34  
Old 11-20-2008, 08:30 PM
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i think one thing that new people have to realize is that they do not own this website. Someone owns it besides them, and since it is their property they can make the rules whatever they want to be. I've seen a lot of posting from new people saying stuff like "well other forums...." the idea of what other forums do is null in my opinion... they don't own this website, the owners of this website make the rules, if you follow them, you're fine, otherwise just leave, no one is making you come here... seriously

Quote:
Frankly, pressing the lock button is laziness. It doesn't encourage the newbie to do anything except leave and further irritate the community that feels they can't post anything. The above polling data should be some indicator (by an almost 2-to-1 margin so far) that the community doesn't want to be over moderated. Almost everything has been discussed before at some point. Just because a topic was discussed last month or last year doesn't mean that it's dead forever and should never be mentioned again.
and at that... locking the threads that have answers found elsewhere is a good thing in my opinion. If you have 100 threads all saying the same thing, not only does it make it harder to find something if you want it, it also takes up server space which slows it down etc... just saying.

Last edited by British; 11-20-2008 at 08:33 PM.
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  #35  
Old 11-20-2008, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texx View Post
That's hilarious. So in closing a thread rather than allowing it to clutter the boards or cause people tired of seeing the same thread over and over again start flaming the person, the moderator is lazy.

How bout if you encourage other people to do that, rather than requiring the moderator to have to be the librarian too?

Do you not see the dual-edge here? Why on God's green earth would I or anyone else spend the eternal time it would take to collect relevant posts on a topic and put them all in one place when all it would take is an overzealous moderator to lock and delete that post in a matter of seconds because they felt is was irrelevant or unneeded? You seem to be missing the overall point here. Or rather, ignoring it. Locking or deleting a thread without pointing the poster in the right direction is a smack in the face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texx View Post
You want help? Then start by helping yourself. Then ask me an intelligent question so that I don't have to spend more of my hobby time explaining all the basics to you. Basics which are so thoroughly covered on Google that you can find them in every language on the planet.

You want value? Start by contributing something of value to the community. Within your first dozen or so posts, you have seen fit to criticize just about everything we have worked to build here.

Who is any new person to judge what is an intelligent question in your opinion? There's no answer for that. I personally have never asked a newbish question here because I have done my homework. I won't pose a question that I haven't researched myself, but not everyone does that. This is not www.grizzledairsoftveteran.com where everyone has the same level of knowledge and experience as you do. You're supposed to want to share that knowledge and experience with others, not wield it as a banner of resentment. I'm 100% certain that at one time, you were new as well. I have to wonder if you were treated as poorly as you treat other newbies.

It's blatantly obvious that there is a percentage of people here who truly have zero interest in being a good Samaritan for airsoft or expanding this community. You're mistaken on another point as well, Texx. I'm not griping for the sake of griping. I care and want to contribute, and at some point you'll find that I'm a valuable and knowledgeable member of the community...despite your best efforts. This is all in an effort to uphold what a forum and community is supposed to be about, not personal attacks against the moderator staff.

You seem to be incapable of looking at things from a new player's perspective. Let's take a look at some of the things a newbie might encounter in his first visit to this site:

1 - An "Ask a Veteran" thread. Which exists solely to answer new player questions, according to the sticky. It is also supposed to be exempt from the no opinion rule. Neither is the case as threads are prematurely locked.

2 - A sticky about the trivial differences between magazines and clips.

3 - Forum rules that state opinion posts are not allowed.

I'm officially done with this and pretty much any other "discussion" on these boards. From now on, I'll change my board view to only expand the events section where I can view what's coming up.
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  #36  
Old 11-20-2008, 08:43 PM
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Bubba I hope we are on the same page as what i'm saying. "well other forums" Ya that's great and all but as Bubba said they don't own AO, and they all have differnt rules. Personaly i think the AO rules are fine could be tweaked a little but other then that fine. I've noticed something with some of the threads, praticuarly one (Sorry if I spelled that wrong.) were it got locked after some one said that they were happy the election signs were coming down and the Mod said, Political statement made thread now locked. And i was like how the heck is that political. It would be helpful if before this happened things were givin a closer look.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Browncoat View Post
1 - An "Ask a Veteran" thread. Which exists solely to answer new player questions, according to the sticky. It is also supposed to be exempt from the no opinion rule. Neither is the case as threads are prematurely locked.

2 - A sticky about the trivial differences between magazines and clips.

3 - Forum rules that state opinion posts are not allowed.
1: 'Ask a vet' section pretty much has all the answers that a noob needs. He just needs to look a little. The problem with the 'ask a vet' is that the only questions that are asked are ones that are so repetitive they make you want to tear your eyeballs out. What it was designed to do was answer questions like "Are mouth guards really necesary?" not "wut am teh bestest echo 1?".

2: The English language is a complicated thing, it only helps if you speak it right.

3: That is over ruled in the 'ask a vet' rules, opinion posts are not supposed to be in the other forums. Remember 'ask a vet' was created after the other forums because there was an abundance of opinion threads in the other forums, which was against the rules.

sgtsawgunna: that thread was locked because the discussion was quickly turning into a "I voted today" thread, which from a few other forums that I visit quickly turns into"yeah I voted for McCain 08" or "I voted for Obama 08". Then it just gets out of hand. I think the mod who locked it did the right thing.

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Old 11-20-2008, 09:17 PM
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Hmm i must have missed that. Well that i guess is a good reason.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:25 PM
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Oddly enough I wasn't going to touch this thread, however the ignorance of some of the posters throughout this thread has forced my hand. The blatant lack of some posters not following social rules, and the passive-aggressiveness of the posters not only shows their lack of knowledge, but as well, compounds their ignorance. The recent lack of logic in new members posts, combined with the growth of the community has made being a mod intolerable.

However, with that said I'll get started.

Quote:
First, allow me to define Reliability. Reliability "is the ability of a person or system to perform and maintain its functions in routine circumstances, as well as hostile or unexpected circumstances." When a new guy asks that question and suddenly you say "Reliable gearbox for what exactly? Upgades? Durability? Looking shiny? Abuse? Being filled with candy?" and then lock his topic, that isn't because he didn't do his research, it's because you felt he/she didn't write the post to your standards. Or maybe, you assumed that it was another generic post. Yet, if you look at my definition, it was a perfectly acceptable question. Some people think of reliability as just that. Is it going to last? Also, if you go lock crazy, you prevent that person from being able to clarify what they mean. At the same time, he/she is sitting there wondering "What the hell happened?" and congrats, you turned away a potentially contributive person.
A gray line is indeed just that, gray. Why should you define reliability for me? For that matter, how do you even know what reliability even is in airsoft terms?

Now, to me you are a noobie Why? You registered in September of 2008. Now, I registered on this version of the forums 5~ish years ago. I was member number 73 on the old version of the forums, and I was playing airsoft previous to that. Which even leads me to ask - why are you trying to change a community that, in my opinion, is fine? However that's not my point at hand. My point is you, trying to tell veterans who know what they're doing, how to do their job. Which leads me to this example:

Would you go to a new job you got, on day one, and tell people there how to do it?

In my world, No - you would get fired.

In my world here, the admins of the site lay out the rules for me to govern by, and that means I tell you what to do. When you don't follow them, I lock your thread. This does NOT mean I'm lazy, nor does it mean I hate your very existence. It means you broke the rules in my opinion. The opinion that I have developed over the past 10 years of playing airsoft, the opinion I have developed over the past 8 years of being in this community, and for the better part of those 8 years being a leader in this community.

Quote:
Frankly, pressing the lock button is laziness. It doesn't encourage the newbie to do anything except leave and further irritate the community that feels they can't post anything. The above polling data should be some indicator (by an almost 2-to-1 margin so far) that the community doesn't want to be over moderated. Almost everything has been discussed before at some point. Just because a topic was discussed last month or last year doesn't mean that it's dead forever and should never be mentioned again.
So you're calling a moderator lazy, long and short of there. I would actually say this community is decently lax when it comes to terms of moderation. However, my statement, and yours just proves one thing: This is a community. If you don't like the community you live in, what do you do? Move.

About a year or so ago, we ran into a problem just like this - actually mentioned by texx - where a group of people (Who, some of which happen to be my best friends in real life) did not like the board rules. Instead of 'fighting the power' and creating more problems, we as a group decided to make our own community, called airsoft chan. It's a very small section of the AO community, but since we have done that - nearly 0 problems have come up with that group.

To break what I said down a bit: If you don't like the current AO community, leave.

Now, back to the point of saying mods are lazy and abusing their power.

Last I checked, I have either authored, or helped author a number of, what you liked to call 'catch-all FAQ's' such as:

http://www.airsoftohio.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=18334

http://www.airsoftohio.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=11646

Along with a number of smaller reviews, and the countless questions about things I have asked.

You, browncoat joined this community 11-17-2008. About 3 days now you've been in the community and you're already judging it's broken. Might I ask how? Might I ask how you even have the ability to tell people who have been posting, forming and leading this community for years that they're doing it wrong?

You flat out called mods lazy, you're saying that the mods are breaking the community instead of helping it.. yet, you've added nothing to the community other then a problem and become a head to be blunt.



Do you see that image? Do you see "Est. 2001" in it? This community has grown immensely since 2001. As I said, when I joined I was member number 73. I was ripped on by a then member named Armyhummer, a lot. I was a noobie, I posted too much, I thought I knew stuff I didn't. I was moderated heavily, nearly banned for that matter. What did I do? I sat back and I read, I started to make helpful posts instead of junk. I researched topics and I helped people. I even do that now, as the number 1 poster on this forum, and having owned / worked on / built more guns than I care to even remember, I am confident in saying I know a whole lot more about airsoft and gear then 99.9% of people on this forum. Not very many people who post here can go into active detail about the differences between a tightbore LRB system in an Asahi M60e3 Short DX vs. a regular bore LRB. Or who made the one upgrade spring for the Sun Projects M40a1 standard.

Yes, my posts might not be updated - I do not get paid to write things here. I do not get paid to be a mod here, I don't get paid to explain to someone over AIM for 3 hours what they did wrong on the forums to earn an infraction, how to fix their gun, and what boots they should get. Now, if you want to pay my electric bill, I'll be a little bit more open to criticism. But, I don't see that happening.

Now, as it was already stated airsoft ohio is a community. Most of the active posters have met each other, gamed with each other, even hang out with each other. I will freely admit, some of the mods are my best friends. What does that mean? We think alike. None of the mod's are terribly new. Most of the mods are veterans of the community, who the admins felt to in trust power to because we would steer the community in the right direction. And in my opinion as one of those mods, I believe we have done a pretty damn good job at doing that so far. Airsoft Ohio has grown way beyond what I thought it would be. It's become pretty much the staple of fabric throughout Ohio airsoft, it's become a great place to find upcoming events, learn basic rules and regulations, do research on, and ask respectful questions. As well, the majority of the core members are pretty much the core members you find at fields around Ohio on the weekends making the great games happen.

From your introduction:
Quote:
So, at any rate, here I am. As a forum mod myself from way back, I'll try to avoid the usual newbie pitfalls and not ask stupid questions. Heck, I've even located the search feature already. I'll likely venture down to the retail location this week and see what kind of trouble I can get my wallet into.
You made a lot of statements so far in the past 3 days that have already broken your efforts to avoid the "usual newbie pitfalls". For example, you're thread about roles - started off on the good step, however quickly fell down. When you ask a rather broad generic question such as "What gear should I get" - it all comes down to personal preference and how much you want to get into airsoft.

Now, let me answer "what gear should I get" from my point of view.

- Two load outs, heavy and light: Eagle CIRAS or ECLiPSE RBAV in Coyote Brown, and a Eagle RRV with back plate or Eagle Plate Carrier in Coyote brown. All Coyote Pouches.

- Systema M4a1 PTW 'MAX' with a KAC RAS and a Eotech 511

- Safariland thigh holster with a full metal Tokyo Marui Sig 226.

Unfortunately for that set up you would be looking at a 4000-5000$ bill for it all. Not something most people want to spend in one place, considering you can buy cars for that same amount. None the less, it is - in my opinion - the very best of the best, and many people also tend to agree with me. And most people would also agree with me: it's overkill for airsoft, and it's a money sink. Why do I do it? Because I wanted the best of the best, and I enjoy airsoft that much, and I've been playing that long that I can invest that amount of money into it.

For others, an Echo 1 Mp5 and a UTG tac vest is much more economical, and much more fitted for them. As well, will only cost 300-400$ for a decent load out. Will I critique that person when they're next to me behind a bunker? No. Do some of my friends have load outs like that? Yeah, they do. Do I still go out and game with them on the field? Yeah.

Now do you see in terms of how broad some questions like that are?


Now, this quote of yours:
Quote:
I care and want to contribute, and at some point you'll find that I'm a valuable and knowledgeable member of the community...despite your best efforts. This is all in an effort to uphold what a forum and community is supposed to be about, not personal attacks against the moderator staff.
Really makes me curious. How do you intend to place a value of yourself, or your knowledge of airsoft its self, specifically in this community, when you've been here for 3 days? Now, if you've been here for 3 years, thats something different. But right now, you're complete ignorance of the fact that the airsoft ohio community has been growing despite what you would call "the moderators best efforts to stop it", just proves that what we're doing works.

So, in closing I am going to say this:

AO has grown at a pace much faster then I believed it would. We have an influx of new members at certain times of the year and this issue always comes up. Out of this influx, we'll get 2-3 members who post regularly in the end, the rest fade away. Those 2-3 members become part of the community, the rest seem to loose interest. Does AO need to change? Sure, anything that doesn't change has to be left behind.

Quote:
I don't know where I'm going... but I know where I've been.
AO will change, I'm sure of it. However your efforts to force a change have made you nothing but ignorant. You may want to go out as a 'martyr', but I believe it's had the exact opposite effect. You've made yourself look like a little kid throwing a fit because he didn't get his new shiny toy. Sorry, I'm not going to spoon feed you information. I know what I've written, I know the information that is out there - you apparently do not. I'm sorry you don't like the rules, but I don't like the fact the speed limit is 65 when I know I can drive safely at 80. However, I still follow the speed limit. I know people who question why AO, and AO events have a 400 FPS limit, or why it's under 18 you can't use a sniper rifle. But there is a logical reasoning behind everything.

However, since you are 'done' with the community, I bid you farewell.

To other who read this post, I hope to make something clear. You're more then welcome to express your displeasure with AO, and it's rules. I've had more then one conversation with people on why the Age limit is 18 for sniper rifles. Or why it's 14 for events. Or why we cap ourselves at 400 for FPS, when our guns can shoot 500 with out problems.

Well, there logic behind it all. No matter how much you complain to me, or make try to make a huge statement behind it, you're not going to change my mind. I'm not getting paid for this, it's not like I'm loosing a customer, or going to some how other wise effect my life. If you want something changed, offer a logical, simple explanation on why it needs to be changed and how it will better the community. If you cannot do that, or do not have a complete understanding of what you want changed, then don't. As I said, the moderators, and admin all know each other. We do not always see eye to eye. We are not out to get you. (Not worth our time, to be blunt.) If you broke a rule, we are here to enforce it, that's it.

Hope this clears things up.

Cheers
Fox.
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  #40  
Old 11-20-2008, 09:31 PM
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Brown,

AO has two types of new members.

Short Term Membership:
  • Expect it to bend over backwards to help them.
  • Gripe when they aren't given the help they want.
  • Insist they know the way the community should be.
  • Contribute nothing but drama and complaining.
  • Hand out accusations of everyone being out to get them.
  • Accuse the moderators of mistreating them.
  • Throw their tantraums insisting they'll never come back.
  • Are banned for flaming.

Long-Term membership:
  • Spend the time putting in the grunt work.
  • Read through the forums for several months.
  • Stay out of the "community discussion" and find information they are looking for.
  • Begin contributing information and encouraging other new members to do as they have.
  • Offer to help by leading by example
  • Ask for help privately via PM or IM program.
  • Jump into projects and learn for themselves.
  • Are surprised when they receive positive rep from the older vets.
  • Look at the community as something to contribute to rather than simply taking from.
  • Are given more leeway when they get into trouble.
  • Become a respected member of the community.

I don't know, which one of those would you fit into?
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:41 PM
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Honestly, this discussion has been had a few times, and the end results are the same.

It will all come down to this:

-One side, likely registered for less than a year or two, will claim that the mods are too harsh, and are running off new members.

-The other will claim that the rules are fine, or that we need more.

Personally, I'm in the middle.

BTW, nobody has answered any of the questions I've asked. I'm still looking forward to hearing some discussion on them.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:50 PM
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you asked and you shall recieve loki
Quote:
If we have the "Lenient Enforcement of the rules", would that mean that we should have NO rules? Why would rules matter at all if they weren't enforced? How would moderators judge what is considered a "blatant transgression"? I tried this a year ago and look what happened.

My idea of lenient enforcement of rules would be haveing a 3 strike system. The strikes in and of themselves are not really held against you, and carry no other form of punishment with them, but as soon as you hit 3 you have a punishment. From that you could have a waterfall effect.

1st time reaching 3 strikes - 1 month ban
2nd " " " " - 2 month ban

and it goes on.

I personally voted for the strictest form of enforcement. why? because i'm one of the people that believe that the rules are there to be followed, and by signing in to this account i am say "I will follow the rules because the admins shouldn't give a rat's *** about my own personal feelings, they have rules and they should enforce them". do i believe that rules should be bent in my favor? no. but back to the question.

There's an upside to haveing lenient rules that i see, if someone screws up a first time and they honestly didn't know the rules, then it's a good chance for them to learn, granted they should have read the rules, but no one's perfect (example: me). You're being lenient by not banning them right away, that's what i see lenient as, giving them a CHANCE to redeem themselves. personally i think that flaming someone to a crisp gets the point across better, but then you risk coming across as an *** and all that.

and for the blatent transgression part. I think it's blatent only if they've been told about a rule when they broke it before, then they still break it again. That's blatent for me

there's my 2 cents.


EDIT: is it just me or do i get side tracked in every post i make that's over a sentance?

Last edited by British; 11-20-2008 at 09:55 PM.
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  #43  
Old 11-20-2008, 09:52 PM
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In the interest of furthering productive discussion, I had an idea of something that might help (though not solve) some of the problem. It's just an idea, and I thought I would throw it out there.

Why don't we just ignore stupid posts? If someone posts a "What gun should I buy" then we shouldn't answer it. Probably someone will make some post about how it shouldn't have been posted in the first place, but that's inevitable. If we just ignore the post, then it can be deleted after a week and no one will even notice it was there.
That way newbies will get the message that if they want an answer, that's not the way to get one, and the attention whores will be shut out completely. And it also means that the well meaning, but ill-informed newbie doesn't feel shot down by the community, and instead he simply has to find another way to get his answers.

Just a though.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:56 PM
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I log into AO multiple times a day. As i am logged in i notice there are lot of regulars who are as well. When i click the "New threads" button it gets to the point where ignoring them turns into annoying. Annoyance turns into frustration. Frustration leads to not logging in. Now if all of those same regular members reached that "not logging in point" There wouldnt be anyone left to answer questions out of the "Ask a Veteran" thread.

Ignoring something is never the answer(unless its your g/f). Take the time to work it right. If you lock the thread, they will know why. If they dont know why their first response is to message a moderator. In which case that moderator will explain why the action has been taken. If the user continues to create new threads flaming the moderator's decision then the user will get infractions. Eventually the user will leave our community thus making it a better place.

I average 1.16 posts a day. I've been actively posting for 2 years. Before that i surfed and browsed. My friends and i started airsoft in late 90's and 2000's with springer pistols and minis. We moved up to single action springer rifles. That followed to AEGs. During that time not once did we ask for help. We did our research and started going to events and got to where we are today. In my 1.16 posts is all of it useful? No. Are there some one liners? Yes. Off topic threads? Yes. Do i capitalize ever "i" or apostrophe every "nt"? No. Because others like myself know how and where to make our remarks and add information when its important is the reason why we've accumulated lots of rep points and have yet to see any trouble from the moderators. Why is that hard for everyone else?

Last edited by Mavrick; 11-20-2008 at 10:11 PM.
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  #45  
Old 11-20-2008, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrick View Post
I log into AO multiple times a day. As i am logged in i notice there are lot of regulars who are as well. When i click the "New threads" button it gets to the point where ignoring them turns into annoying.

Ignoring something is never the answer(unless its your g/f). Take the time to work it right.
too right... ignoring something doesn't make it go away... it just makes it so you don't notice it till you choose to again.
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  #46  
Old 11-20-2008, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrick View Post
I log into AO multiple times a day. As i am logged in i notice there are lot of regulars who are as well. When i click the "New threads" button it gets to the point where ignoring them turns into annoying.

Ignoring something is never the answer(unless its your g/f). Take the time to work it right.
A fair point.

What qualifies as doing it right? I think that we should discuss what our goal is here. I think that for sure we want to make sure that the rules are enforced, and that the rules accomplish what is in the best interests of the community. I think that includes making sure that the idiots and the flamers are properly discouraged while the people who mean well but simply don't understand how the system works are guided in the proper direction instead of being ***** slapped.

We want people to be able to ask questions. Yes, you should look things up first. That's what I did. I spent several months just lurking the forums, and lurking the rest of the internet learning all I could about airsoft before I ever made a post. When did decide to post I searched first, and made serious attempts to find the answers myself.

But even I made mistakes. In one of my first threads I triple posted, not realizing that was a big deal. (On a previous forum site I frequent it was common practice to post again if you had something new to add.) Someone politely but firmly pointed out that it was against the rules, I was properly embarrassed for my newbie mistake, and I haven't done it again.

My first encounter with the mods was as it should be. I had done my homework, and made a procedural oops. I was corrected, I fixed my mistake, and I learned from it. I didn't get alienated from the forum, and in fact I was even more eager to make sure that I had something to say in every post I've made. (Whether I've succeeded is open for debate, I suppose.)

That's how I would like to see other newbies treated. Educationally, but kindly.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sventhewarrior View Post
A fair point.

What qualifies as doing it right? I think that we should discuss what our goal is here. I think that for sure we want to make sure that the rules are enforced, and that the rules accomplish what is in the best interests of the community. I think that includes making sure that the idiots and the flamers are properly discouraged while the people who mean well but simply don't understand how the system works are guided in the proper direction instead of being ***** slapped.

We want people to be able to ask questions. Yes, you should look things up first. That's what I did. I spent several months just lurking the forums, and lurking the rest of the internet learning all I could about airsoft before I ever made a post. When did decide to post I searched first, and made serious attempts to find the answers myself.

But even I made mistakes. In one of my first threads I triple posted, not realizing that was a big deal. (On a previous forum site I frequent it was common practice to post again if you had something new to add.) Someone politely but firmly pointed out that it was against the rules, I was properly embarrassed for my newbie mistake, and I haven't done it again.

My first encounter with the mods was as it should be. I had done my homework, and made a procedural oops. I was corrected, I fixed my mistake, and I learned from it. I didn't get alienated from the forum, and in fact I was even more eager to make sure that I had something to say in every post I've made. (Whether I've succeeded is open for debate, I suppose.)

That's how I would like to see other newbies treated. Educationally, but kindly.

In some ways i agree with you, but in others i don't. Should new people be treated nicely? kind of. It is the duty of a new person to read the rules, it's sort of like getting a new job, when you first go to work, do you just hop into it, or do you take time to learn what you can and can't do? Naturally you learn the rules, the same should be applied here. This isn't just a place for people to come, ask a bunch of random questions, and post a bunch of useless topics. Common sense and rules need to come into place.

If a newbie makes an honest mistake, they should corrected politly. but if they come on spewing all this random knowledge and asking random questions that contribute in no way and have been asked before... well common sense should have kicked in and told them that was a bad move.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:17 PM
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Not being a long-time member, I'd just like to throw something in that wasn't an option in the poll.

I think that there should be zero tolerance to newer members. The last three months has made me come on and post less and less. The new members that have just joined, for the most part, have been very annoying. Many have posted useless posts and threads.
I feel that for people who have been here 1-2 years should have a moderate tolerance policy. These people usually don't post anything that breaks the rules too bad.
For 2+ years, and some good posts, I think that there should be a leniency policy. Some infractions are left to a PM or uncalled.

I also think that there is too much public bashing. It's never really happened to me, so I don't know everything, but if it were me, the first few infractions, I'd like a PM instead of getting a post on my thread. This snowballs into every member and their brother jumping in and saying what an idiot I am. It just turns into a flame war, which is what this site is trying to stop. As I said, if most infractions are handed out via PM then great, but it seems like most infractions are done on threads now.


I like the way that the initiative has been taken, and it seems like things will be back on track shortly.

I just wanted to throw in something that I thought wasn't in the poll, and that no one expressed directly above.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sventhewarrior View Post
A fair point.

What qualifies as doing it right? I think that we should discuss what our goal is here. I think that for sure we want to make sure that the rules are enforced, and that the rules accomplish what is in the best interests of the community. I think that includes making sure that the idiots and the flamers are properly discouraged while the people who mean well but simply don't understand how the system works are guided in the proper direction instead of being ***** slapped.

We want people to be able to ask questions. Yes, you should look things up first. That's what I did. I spent several months just lurking the forums, and lurking the rest of the internet learning all I could about airsoft before I ever made a post. When did decide to post I searched first, and made serious attempts to find the answers myself.

But even I made mistakes. In one of my first threads I triple posted, not realizing that was a big deal. (On a previous forum site I frequent it was common practice to post again if you had something new to add.) Someone politely but firmly pointed out that it was against the rules, I was properly embarrassed for my newbie mistake, and I haven't done it again.

My first encounter with the mods was as it should be. I had done my homework, and made a procedural oops. I was corrected, I fixed my mistake, and I learned from it. I didn't get alienated from the forum, and in fact I was even more eager to make sure that I had something to say in every post I've made. (Whether I've succeeded is open for debate, I suppose.)

That's how I would like to see other newbies treated. Educationally, but kindly.
So because your mistakes were not ignored, rather, pointed out to you and public embarrassment you've learned your lesson? Why would you suggest ignoring any newbie posts now?

Should a new member feel stupid after doing something stupid? I believe so. I think it works. Have you never heard or found yourself saying "Man i'll never do something as stupid as that again"? Does the light socket ignore you when you stick a fork in it? No, it 'politely, but firmly' teaches you not to do it again.

Perhaps i feel the way i do is because of my childhood. My misbehaviors were not ignored...I was spanked for them. Eventually i had enough spankings and i shaped up.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:22 PM
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So because your mistakes were not ignored, rather, pointed out to you and public embarrassment you've learned your lesson? Why would you suggest ignoring any newbie posts now?

Should a new member feel stupid after doing something stupid? I believe so. I think it works. Have you never heard or found yourself saying "Man i'll never do something as stupid as that again"? Does the light socket ignore you when you stick a fork in it? No, it 'politely, but firmly' teaches you not to do it again.

Perhaps i feel the way i do is because of my childhood. My misbehaviors were not ignored...I was spanked for them. Eventually i had enough spankings and i shaped up.

I think this is a good time to point out that i was at one point one of those noobs that was a complete idiot on the forums. I remember back when i first joined i asked a question about something to do with a WELL MP5 i bought and someone politly pointed out that it was in the wrong section... now today i would say "whoops must have mis clicked" but back then being my noobish self, i think my exact words were "well you found it so why should it matter where it is?" yeah... i deserved teh bashing i got.

This went on for a while later then a group of people (not going to say who incase they dont' want me to for some reason) neg rep raped me and you know what? I learned my lesson. This is the leniency that i believe new members shoudl have, lenient in teh way of not getting banned, but being publicly humiliated to the point of shaping up. so yeah... let that be a lesson to everyone, new members deserve a very small form of leniency... i was treated nicely, and ignored it, and i got what was coming to me. I completly deserved it, and honestly, a lot of new people deserve exactly what they get.
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