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Rating: 8 votes, 5.00 average.

Dear Systema, THE BEARING IS WRONG!

Posted 04-02-2010 at 12:58 PM by Scorpion
Updated 04-12-2010 at 06:45 AM by Scorpion (Clarity)
Hello Systema fans all around and Systema PTW owners in AO, this is a notice to Systema on our behalf.

Dear Systema, YOUR BEARING PLACEMENT SUCKS!

Did you guys just fall asleep on the job, or did you decide to quit while you were behind? I am so angry about what I just found today while building a customer's PTW5(MP5 model PTW). To catch my readers up on what I've experienced so far with my personal PTW here is a short list.

1) All 7 of my Systema PTW magazines failed to feed BBs until I stripped each one down completely and then modified various working part and the feed lips to flow BBs without issue.

2) My PTW motor failed due to a broken winding within the armature structure. Go read up on the PTW forums about this one, you have to send your motor off to get it completely custom rebuilt to a serviceable specification or else you're subject to purchasing a new motor which will STILL fail due to windings breaking or the comm surface becoming so destroyed it cannot properly receive electrical flow from the brushes!

3) The upper receiver of my PTW literally split into two pieces while I was firing. It completely sheared off just behind the threads that the barrel nut attaches to and slid off into my forearm, inner barrel and all. Distorted Axis of the STRIKERS witnessed this and was very helpful with troubleshooting with me in the field, but came to the conclusion that the only time this failure is seen is when the buffer tube cap is shimmed to far out and causes excessive pressure on the forward assembly. Coming from an automotive background this type of answer is akin to "you just need to change your headlight fluid". Yeah right, how about you make it so the receiver is of a stronger aluminum that won't fail. Oh and for the record I use my metric micrometer and the stock tube is recessed exactly 2.1mm within the lower receiver as per your manual and the stock cap had last been adjusted by one of your authorized PTW shops(Airsoftarms). So either your instructions are wrong or you actually made one of the lowest grade receivers I've ever seen.

4) The Hop-up gives horrible groupings! So bad that a stock Echo1 can out shoot most standard PTWs. That's just pathetic since the PTW HOP and barrel costs as much as the entire Echo1 AEG. This was remedied by yet MORE custom modifications to install AEG components to make the HOP more consistent and much more adjustable.


So now that you're all caught up on my personal PTW here is what just put me over the edge on Systema and their endless bull****. I am assembling a PTW5(MP5PTW) for a customer and I cannot complete the build without performing a custom modification to the gearbox.

The lower bearing of the Sector gear is exactly 0.70mm too far to the right and is coming in contact with the outer face of the spur gear teeth. You cannot rotate the gears by hand without using what I'll call excessive force to drive the spur gear to rotate by cutting into the bearing lip. There are clear surface wear markings along every tooth of the spur gear now to show a 0.5mm width contact area where each tooth cuts into and passes along the surface of the flange on the sector gear bearing.



This is completely UNACCEPTABLE Systema. A $1000 TOY gun and you can't even give the gears proper clearance? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU DOING OVER THERE? You say you offer the best most advanced AEG on the market. You claim to have superior engineering by way of state of the art technology. Well I'm calling your bluff yet again. You're just another cheap rip off. Sure the price of admission to this ride is higher, but in the end the result is the same. Here I sit, having to apply custom modifications to fix your **** ups. I was sitting in this same exact spot with my normal AEGs.

And here is what a modified custom fit bearing looks like in a PTW5 to allow proper gear clearance. Yes, the bearing will be epoxied in place to prohibit any rotation within the bearing hole.



To the credit of Systema USA(Z-Shot), you gentlemen have always given exceptional service and if you could have matched the Redwolf offer from long ago I would have purchased from you instead. I'd also like to credit Airsoftarms for helping me with a couple initial custom modifications to my cylinder when I had first purchased the PTW. All of the dealings I have had locally with Systema representatives has been stellar, you are all great people, so please do not take my words as directed to you. I am only after Systema engineering and product design.


In closing,

LOL!
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Total Comments 70

Comments

  1. Old
    Scorp ....ill say this dude youre one of the few patient people i know here and i would have sent that thing back to systema with a big F*CK you very much and ask for my money back.
    Now yes before i get azzf*cked with the ozz getta clue pms and the such, this single person id trust with not only my life but my guns, true this might have been one in a million but what scorp 3 outa 4 ive seen you use have failed in the least oportune moments ( mights been the same gun different mods) stil lthank you for opening some eyes and atcualt posting something worth reading ...
    For the rest itsl kinda like Listening to Howard Stern if you dont wana here him make fun of some one or in this case something ....change the F*Ckin Chanel
    Posted 04-04-2010 at 09:50 AM by Ozzsclan Ozzsclan is offline
  2. Old
    Locutus's Avatar
    Scorpion, you still haven't addressed how there are thousands of other perfectly working TW5's out there if this was a design failure. Are you saying everyone who has purchased a TW5 has had to make some sort of modification in order to get theirs to work? Be realistic please.

    This type of posting seems like you are going off half cocked. You stated you don't know if this is unique to the box you have, because you have not seen another? But until someone else shows you otherwise you are not going to recommend it? Really? Wow.

    So far, you have no evidence of anything but perhaps a defective TW5, and you are posting all over the place like you discovered a major design flaw. For your sake, I hope this is a mass problem, you are you going to look really silly.
    Posted 04-04-2010 at 10:02 AM by Locutus Locutus is offline
  3. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    HA! Not silly at all Loc, not even close. I found a major flaw and am spreading the word about it. I'm also not recomending a PTW5 purchase when the PTW M16 platform is much better in every way but as I continue to say that is ALL for another time. I've also asked to be proven wrong multiple times. I sincerely hope this is a unique flaw to the PTW5 I worked on and have said this the entire time. Never once did I say all PTW5 will be like this. Only have I stated what I found, what I think of that finding, and sent out a request to anyone anywhere with a PTW5 to show their box does not share the same issue

    But thank you for your post Loc, like Darkstar's post it helps to give a neutral perspective to the issue and gives me yet another chance to explain in detail what has happened for those who don't want to read everything that's been typed so far.

    Keep posting people and more attention will come to the issue. Forot about me and focus on finding another PTW5 to open up and show off!
    Posted 04-04-2010 at 11:36 AM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  4. Old
    Darkstar's Avatar
    "WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO SPEND ANOTHER $200 ON OUR $1100 RIFLE!"

    Yea, but people buy Ferarri's and BMW's and Lamborghini's and still spend more money to get more performance out of them too. People are always trying to make what they have better, so there are always going to be people who arren't happy with what they have. I guess this is no exception. Being that PTW's are built for reliability and not accuracy, there's always going to be room for improvement.
    Posted 04-04-2010 at 04:11 PM by Darkstar Darkstar is offline
  5. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    I wholeheartedly agree Darkstar! I would know, I modify my BMW extensively to my personal taste. I'm just not arguing that point for this certain blog, it was about factory design not being what is "expected" for the price tag, that's all.
    Posted 04-04-2010 at 05:00 PM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  6. Old
    Torque's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Darkstar
    Being that PTW's are built for reliability
    Oh rly?
    Posted 04-04-2010 at 08:59 PM by Torque Torque is offline
    Updated 04-04-2010 at 09:39 PM by Torque
  7. Old
    Son of Liberty's Avatar
    Don't you have to actually play and use the rifle to have a full experience with it?
    Posted 04-04-2010 at 09:01 PM by Son of Liberty Son of Liberty is offline
  8. Old
    Torque's Avatar
    Nah SoL, instead I just needed to list all the PTW issues above FROM ALL THOSE OF MY OWN TEAM MATES ACTUAL PTW ISSUES. (Oh Snap!)

    That is all.
    Posted 04-04-2010 at 09:14 PM by Torque Torque is offline
    Updated 04-04-2010 at 09:23 PM by Torque
  9. Old
    Red's Avatar
    I think what people need to understand is that not everything everyone says on issues on the forums are not concrete, but instead, an individual opinion and experience. We as people should be taking every little thing that is handed to us with some form of discretion, or "grain of salt."

    I wouldn't say that Scorpion is trying to prove to the world that the TW5 is a total **** heap, so to speak. He's simply saying Systema shouldn't have these types of flaws (major enough to cause a gun to not function), even if it's 1 in 1,000. If it's 1 in 1,000, either Scorpion is messing up on assembly or someone from systema made a mistake and fubarred this receiver. It's not impossible that a machine had a malfunction, and systema didn't care to replace the mechbox or trash it. It's also pretty hard to imagine that Scorpion was having a hard time installing a bushing/bearing into a gearbox, both of which are pre-made and included in the box. Most people would have a hard time messing that up if they've been in and out of a gearbox before.

    Just my thoughts on the discussion at hand.
    Posted 04-04-2010 at 11:13 PM by Red Red is offline
  10. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    Thanks Red! You nailed it exactly
    Posted 04-05-2010 at 05:58 AM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  11. Old
    NH_Nitemare's Avatar
    I have no experience with PTW's, but my comment is based solely on the experience of my profession (Mechanical Engineer). Scorpion, it may be possible you received the statistical anomaly of a manufactured part. What you may have is a gearbox that:
    1) has two parts completely at the extremes of their tolerances

    or

    2)one slightly out of tolerance and the other at the extreme.

    During most production runs not every part is inspected, its usually the first part and then one every X parts, this is dependent on the company and their QC procedure. Either scenario is tolerance stack up failure which equates to engineering failure. This would also explain why most the other PTW5s have no problems. That is what I gathered from the various accounts of others along with problem of Scorpions box.
    Posted 04-05-2010 at 10:27 AM by NH_Nitemare NH_Nitemare is offline
    Updated 04-05-2010 at 10:29 AM by NH_Nitemare
  12. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    NH_Nitemare - option 1) you nailed it. That's all I've been saying the whole time, just like what Red described above your post. For the gearbox to function at 100% in every other possible way then there is clearly an issue with the machining of this specific gearbox assembly.

    Call it Quality Control issues, call it poor engineering, call it lack of product design, or call it a fluke if you like. The part was 100% wrong from teh factory, I had to modify it to make it work, or wait an undetermined about of time to wait on a replacement, and in the end the PTW5 is in the owners hands now working perfectly well. He even has changed cylinders and is having success in all tests he's subjecting it to. A happy ending if you will, all thanks to custom work and a little engineering knowledge on the consumer's part.

    Oh and at this point, I'd REALLY love to see another PTW5 opened up for examination purposes.
    Posted 04-05-2010 at 10:36 AM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  13. Old
    dforces's Avatar
    This is kinda good to know because i would have gotten a systema but i got a KWA m16 instead( due to the obvious difference in price) but when i went into the on topic chat room on this website i was insulted by titan because i didn't have a systema! i just found that kinda strange, great blog! Keep em coming!
    Posted 04-05-2010 at 11:21 AM by dforces dforces is offline
  14. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    Thank you dforces for the compliment, but don't lose heart in PTW just because I'm so vocal about their flaws. I am vocal so people will understand what to expect and how to address the issues. Not to steer them away from what I feel is a great design overall!

    I'm sure your KWA is great for you just like my PTW is great for me, especially now that I know all these ways to keep her trouble free! And if you're getting made fun of for not having something just remember, the AEG is only as effective as the shooter wiedling it. Some of us are better at the wielding part, so we don't have to insult you.
    Posted 04-05-2010 at 12:39 PM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
    Updated 04-05-2010 at 12:42 PM by Scorpion
  15. Old
    Darkstar's Avatar
    LoL Scorpion. I don't think people should generally expect their PTWs to snap in half! Potential motor problems or magazine issues, maybe so.

    I don't really think that you can really claim poor engineering or lack of product design on Systema's part. The opposite is true. They are so confident about their design that Systema now warrants all of their pre-assembled PTWs for a period of 5 years (Challenge Kits excluded because they have no control over the assembly process). Systema's design is fine, as is their quality control. I'd say Systema's QC is far beyond even Toyko Marui. I can't say you got the diamond in the rough. More like the turd in a field of daisies. Same can be said about BMW's though. Just listen to the owners piss and moan about the problems they have with theirs is enough to think there really are design problems. But anyway, when someone buys a Systema PTW, whether it be pre-built or an SCK, they can pretty much be assured that they're going to get a quality product.

    The only major issue I've ever heard of with PTWs has to do with motor complaints, and I concede that there have been quite a few, primarily form Challenge Kit owners. Factory PTWs that come pre-assembled are factory tuned as well for even better reliability, and rarely have motor issues that the SCK's have. I think people arren't always installing them properly, but who knows for sure? If people get an SCK and have problems, then who do you blame for problems when you could have payed a couple hundred more and gotten full product support for 5 years? My next PTW will definitely be pre-built, even though I've had no problems with my SCK.

    The only thing, in my opinion, that Systema needs to do is to revamp the 490T motors so they don't eat through brushes so fast and so that the commutators and windings are more reliable. They should also need to make a slight design change to their magazines and the feed lips, as well as use slightly stronger springs. Most magazine issues I've come accross revolve around weak spring strenght. I've opened several of mine in the past, stretched out the bottom spring, and have never had any feeding problems since. The last thing they could do if they felt it was warranted would be to redesign or modify the hopup. I personally have good experience with mine, but othes have complained about it too. I'm all for making improvements. That's what production is about.

    Let's go back in time by about 10 years. We had Tokyo Marui, which was the best around back then, and then ICS and Classic Army. ICS was on their Version 1 AEG's, and Classic Army was on their Version 2 (or what I like to refer to as their Pot Metal Pigs). ICS guns were terrible back then, of course, we only had MP5's to choose from. Classic Army AEG's were even worse. They pretty much had no quality control, and really no quality in their production parts either. They had about a 75% factory defect rate, which was just terrible.

    But looks at things now? ICS and Classic Army are leaders in the airsoft industry, as well as Systema, Echo 1 and others. customer demand and interaction has helped spur innovation and quality in virtually all aspects of airsoft. If you feel you have suggestions to improve a product, it is fairly easy to get in touch with the people who can get it done at the factory. And, it's a lot more productive that complaining about it loudly on forums that Systema probably never reads. You've got Kumi's e-mail, and those are the people who are going to listen and make those changes. Now go do it!!
    Posted 04-05-2010 at 02:19 PM by Darkstar Darkstar is offline
  16. Old
    Titan's Avatar
    D-Forces, I have no idea what you are talking about. I myself don't have a PTW and personally don't see the point in them, so what you are saying just makes no sense.
    Posted 04-05-2010 at 02:25 PM by Titan Titan is offline
  17. Old
    Darkstar's Avatar
    Titan, I think what he was trying to say is that in the chatroom, you or others were making fun of him for buying a KWA over a PTW.
    Posted 04-06-2010 at 10:46 AM by Darkstar Darkstar is offline
  18. Old
    john's Avatar
    In the end they are all just sewing machines. Now i know scorpion is one of those few people who actually have the patience to seek perfection in the things he cares about. He should be commended. Most of us just care that it works.

    Any product can be improved upon especially one that is a toy. I know i don't buy systema upgrade parts cause i had a bad run with them. But if it weren't for people like me and others who actually Blaugged about it then things wouldn't get better.

    My girl once told me she had to have "dyson" i think it was.. some sort of sweeper that is supposed to be awesome. I short stopped her and brought home a 50 dollar kenmore one day and she's had it ever since. Truth of it was she didn't care about the name she just had a bad run of crappy sweepers and just wanted one to work for once. The kenmore is still going strong and she's happy.

    but please stop comparing your PTW to my BMW lol. It may be a toy but even after 23 years(vintage baby ooh ya) she wouldn't dare pull some bs like what that mp5 just did. That's because i trust my life to it and paid top dollar rather then buy one of craigs list for 2500. You do not risk your life to an airsoft gun.. well let me take that back when your at the end of the day at springfield or roseville using it as a cane then you better.

    But blind submission to a company because of name is silly. Everyone should be pushing systema to make better stuff otherwise echo1 will catch up. Look at the way tm seemed to be resistant to change and then it seems too late. How many more runs of the ctw do you think it will take to fix problems?

    I've thought of selling all my stuff and getting a ptw a bunch of times. but i'm the kind of guy who likes different platforms and looking at them on my wall. Each one has a purpose and gives a different feel. It wasn't is it worth it. It's do i want to? Now i'm getting into the gas gun stuff and i'm excited just because when i open the top covers i see stuff that looks like a gun and not a sewing machine. That makes me fuzzy. Even though i know my classic won't shoot like an aeg just because of recoil alone. But i like that.
    Posted 04-06-2010 at 06:49 PM by john john is offline
  19. Old
    Locutus's Avatar
    John, I disagree about BMW, they certainly have pulled that kind of BS... but don't get me wrong, I love my BMW and once I drive this one into the ground I will probably buy another. Because just like the PTW, it might have some issues, but the pros outweigh them easily.
    Posted 04-07-2010 at 10:20 AM by Locutus Locutus is offline
  20. Old
    john's Avatar
    you should get the m4 bmw instead of the mp5 variant. Straight six. BMWs are meant to handle, not race. That's how you catch james bond.

    Your window issue might just be your button.btw Next time it happens pop the button out of the console and replace it with one of the others. (should be modular) if it works then you are getting hosed on the motors.
    Posted 04-07-2010 at 10:48 AM by john john is offline
 

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