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Dear Systema, THE BEARING IS WRONG!

Posted 04-02-2010 at 12:58 PM by Scorpion
Updated 04-12-2010 at 06:45 AM by Scorpion (Clarity)
Hello Systema fans all around and Systema PTW owners in AO, this is a notice to Systema on our behalf.

Dear Systema, YOUR BEARING PLACEMENT SUCKS!

Did you guys just fall asleep on the job, or did you decide to quit while you were behind? I am so angry about what I just found today while building a customer's PTW5(MP5 model PTW). To catch my readers up on what I've experienced so far with my personal PTW here is a short list.

1) All 7 of my Systema PTW magazines failed to feed BBs until I stripped each one down completely and then modified various working part and the feed lips to flow BBs without issue.

2) My PTW motor failed due to a broken winding within the armature structure. Go read up on the PTW forums about this one, you have to send your motor off to get it completely custom rebuilt to a serviceable specification or else you're subject to purchasing a new motor which will STILL fail due to windings breaking or the comm surface becoming so destroyed it cannot properly receive electrical flow from the brushes!

3) The upper receiver of my PTW literally split into two pieces while I was firing. It completely sheared off just behind the threads that the barrel nut attaches to and slid off into my forearm, inner barrel and all. Distorted Axis of the STRIKERS witnessed this and was very helpful with troubleshooting with me in the field, but came to the conclusion that the only time this failure is seen is when the buffer tube cap is shimmed to far out and causes excessive pressure on the forward assembly. Coming from an automotive background this type of answer is akin to "you just need to change your headlight fluid". Yeah right, how about you make it so the receiver is of a stronger aluminum that won't fail. Oh and for the record I use my metric micrometer and the stock tube is recessed exactly 2.1mm within the lower receiver as per your manual and the stock cap had last been adjusted by one of your authorized PTW shops(Airsoftarms). So either your instructions are wrong or you actually made one of the lowest grade receivers I've ever seen.

4) The Hop-up gives horrible groupings! So bad that a stock Echo1 can out shoot most standard PTWs. That's just pathetic since the PTW HOP and barrel costs as much as the entire Echo1 AEG. This was remedied by yet MORE custom modifications to install AEG components to make the HOP more consistent and much more adjustable.


So now that you're all caught up on my personal PTW here is what just put me over the edge on Systema and their endless bull****. I am assembling a PTW5(MP5PTW) for a customer and I cannot complete the build without performing a custom modification to the gearbox.

The lower bearing of the Sector gear is exactly 0.70mm too far to the right and is coming in contact with the outer face of the spur gear teeth. You cannot rotate the gears by hand without using what I'll call excessive force to drive the spur gear to rotate by cutting into the bearing lip. There are clear surface wear markings along every tooth of the spur gear now to show a 0.5mm width contact area where each tooth cuts into and passes along the surface of the flange on the sector gear bearing.



This is completely UNACCEPTABLE Systema. A $1000 TOY gun and you can't even give the gears proper clearance? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU DOING OVER THERE? You say you offer the best most advanced AEG on the market. You claim to have superior engineering by way of state of the art technology. Well I'm calling your bluff yet again. You're just another cheap rip off. Sure the price of admission to this ride is higher, but in the end the result is the same. Here I sit, having to apply custom modifications to fix your **** ups. I was sitting in this same exact spot with my normal AEGs.

And here is what a modified custom fit bearing looks like in a PTW5 to allow proper gear clearance. Yes, the bearing will be epoxied in place to prohibit any rotation within the bearing hole.



To the credit of Systema USA(Z-Shot), you gentlemen have always given exceptional service and if you could have matched the Redwolf offer from long ago I would have purchased from you instead. I'd also like to credit Airsoftarms for helping me with a couple initial custom modifications to my cylinder when I had first purchased the PTW. All of the dealings I have had locally with Systema representatives has been stellar, you are all great people, so please do not take my words as directed to you. I am only after Systema engineering and product design.


In closing,

LOL!
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Total Comments 70

Comments

  1. Old
    Spectre's Avatar
    I'm not sure at all how this modification could possibly "harm" the PTW. Just short of the bearing shattering and the fragments finding their way around the gearbox that is. Friction, heat, resistance and general instability is never a good thing, I would like to see the justification that Aaron's mod could possibly destroy the box.
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 10:05 PM by Spectre Spectre is offline
  2. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    To answer the questions about my modification here is what happened. The bearing flange was removed to just 0.12mm outside the outer bearing wall. This means that I never contacted the actual bearing ring and therefore did NOT weaken the structre of the bearing. I only remove the flange lip to allow the gear to rotate. Once this work was complete the bearing was sealed within it's bearing hole with waterproof, high heat epoxy. The bearing will only fail if the internal components suffer failure from life cycle completion. As in, the gearbox has finally been cycled to the expected duty cycle of the bearing(which if I recall is over 100,000rds). The bearing can't move in it's fitting so the flange won't ever contact the gear again, and the bearing wall was not breached therefore the bearing can still withstand it's full load from the gearbox and maintain it's expected life span(duty cycle).


    And a HUGE thank you goes out to Darkstar for a "direct from the manufacture" confirmation of what I suspected from the start and have been called out on by many of the community. I want to say I told you so, but at this point I know it's what you're all thinking. Oh who am I kidding...

    I TOLD YOU SO! HA!

    Oh.....That felt good.

    Darkstar thank you so much for providing the measurements and the information direct from Systema. I was not able to see the bearing in person with you, but your information has clearly proven what I have been describing all this time!

    I'd like to echo what Darkstar is saying in the regard of - "I wish everyone involved good luck and I hope this eventually gets resolved." Systema if you're still reading this blog I sure hope you get the message and correct your bull**** engineering. A bearing that needs to be worn to the point of clearance is totally unacceptable in a $1000 PTW5. At this time, having finally confirmed what I was advocating, I will NEVER recommend a PTW5 MAX to anyone I speak with and will inform everyone who asks me of how pathetic the engineering in the PTW5 MAX (gearbox - rest of the PTW5 is great!)really is.


    So for all those who doubted me, thanks for playing, please come back with more quarters because this was fun!
    Posted 04-13-2010 at 06:45 AM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
    Updated 04-13-2010 at 06:56 AM by Scorpion
  3. Old
    Locutus's Avatar
    You told us so??? REALLY? LOL.

    First you said that every one was like that and it was a design flaw, then you were called out for having no way of knowing that (which was the main issue from the start). Then you changed your tune and DENIED that you ever said that and your post was misinterpreted. I guess now you are changing back to saying that you knew it all along?? I guess you can say that when you take both sides.

    You are too funny Scorp. In the future just wait until you have the facts in before you fly off the handle. Things will go a little more smoothly and the information will have more validity. By this point, only a few people are even actively following this blog (those who are entertained by the drama), so you have missed your opportunity to effectively communicate with them. I think you have great skill and knowledge in the area of AEG mechanics and electronics, I just wish that sometime you could share it in a less derisive way.

    Regardless, it seems no fix was really neeeded, and this was much ado about nothing.
    Posted 04-13-2010 at 10:01 AM by Locutus Locutus is offline
    Updated 04-13-2010 at 12:02 PM by Locutus
  4. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    I'm only referring to the fact that I was right about the bearing, not anything more. Sorry for further confusion.

    But yes, in general agreement to your post save the part about the fix needed - Indeed, sir.
    Posted 04-13-2010 at 01:52 PM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
    Updated 04-13-2010 at 02:16 PM by Scorpion
  5. Old
    Darkstar's Avatar
    Yea dude, you really didn't me anything. If anything, it was me who told you, as I had to take it upon myself to actually step up to the plate and get, and then give YOU, the correct information. I gave you the same information you could have gotten yourself if you had made the effort. So you didn't "tell me so". Again, why you didn't contact them in the first place is beyond my comprehension. I called them and got the answers I needed in less than 5 minutes. It's something that you could have easily done yourself before you ever posted a word, and doing so would have kept yourself from looking foolish. Thankfully, we'll all have plenty of Scorpion/TW5 jokes to last us well into the future!! Yay!!!!

    As far as having the issue resolved... You first have to take the initial step of contacting Systema, not waiting for Systema to contact you. This is basic common sense. If your BMW breaks down, BMW isn't going to call you up and schedule a repair appointment (unless you have that new computerized On-Star that sends vehicle health info to them). Anyway, in talks with my sales rep at Systema, he again said he has become aware of this blog post, and has offered to inspect the gun to ensure the proper gear was actually included with the gun and to replace any actual defective parts, and also replace any modified parts at the customer's expense. They would have covered 100% of all costs had you just contacted Systema and sent them the gun in the first place. I realize the gun is probably out of your hands by now, but I believe this entire issue would have been resolved had you just contacted them initially and not had to worry about all of this.

    In response to Spectre, you kind of stated the argument and justification yourself. The structural integrity of the bearing is obviously compromised by the modification, which could lead to failure as a result of exactly what you mentioned: "Friction, heat, resistance and general instability is never a good thing." A combination of any one or more of these factors could cause the bearing to fail. The gear or other gears could also be potentially damaged in case of a failure of the modified bushing as you stated.

    Failure could also be a combination of other factors as well. Even though Aaron has said he epoxied the bushing into place so that it didn't rotate, anyone who has any knowledge of glues will realize that the epoxy probably isn't going to hold together forever, especially metal on metal. PTW's undergo the same kinds of impact stresses that a normal AEG does, and vibrations and torque stresses are likely to cause glue to heat, stress and fail over time. If this occurs and the bearing simply rotates in place, it could rotate and impede the rotation of the gear which could cause a sudden failure of the bearing integrity, or break gear teeth. The bearing bushings in all PTW's are designed to rotate and spin in place which helps reduces overall stresses in the gearbox, so gluing them in place is a BIG no-no!

    Lastly, if the gear isn't the correct size as I previously speculated along with Systema (which we can't know for sure without actually having Systema inspect it), it may be much easier for the oversized gear to fail if it comes in contact with the modified bushing, sending splinters of gear teeth into other gears and potentially damaging those gears, causing something like a cascade failure inside the gearbox. One problem could lead to many others, resulting in an expensive repair. I'm not saying this is guaranteed to happen as we don't know if the gear in question is correct or not, but it's definitely a concern of both me and Systema.

    I, for one, would like to see this gun get repaired to factory spec, to ensure the likelihood that the gun will always work normally and never need additional (potential) repairs. I'm not saying, nor did I ever say, that Aaron's mod wasn't well intentioned to get the customer back up and running as soon as possible, but I personally believe in fixing things right the first time, and if Systema had been unresponsive if contacted about repairs (which clearly they have not since they haven't even been contacted), then making whatever modifications necessary to get the gun working would be a last resort. Being that Systema was never contacted for help, this wasn't the case, and I know they are more than willing to help resolve this issue within the boundries of their product warranty.

    If anything, I think this topic can be an example of what not to do, and when not to let people unfamiliar with particular products assemble them for you. This is nothing against Scorpion, and it happens all the time. It's also an example of when not to complain about a company or their products due to lack of knowledge regarding those products.

    In closing, the one thing that I HIGHLY RECOMMEND is that if the person who currently owns this PTW is reading this thread, or if Scorpion can contact him, PLEASE get in contact with me as soon as possible, or contact zshot.com which is Systema's US Distributor and we'll try to help you get your gun properly repaired to factory spec ASAP.
    Posted 04-13-2010 at 02:51 PM by Darkstar Darkstar is offline
  6. Old
    Spectre's Avatar
    Quote:
    In response to Spectre, you kind of stated the argument and justification yourself. The structural integrity of the bearing is obviously compromised by the modification, which could lead to failure as a result of exactly what you mentioned: "Friction, heat, resistance and general instability is never a good thing." A combination of any one or more of these factors could cause the bearing to fail. The gear or other gears could also be potentially damaged in case of a failure of the modified bushing as you stated.

    Failure could also be a combination of other factors as well. Even though Aaron has said he epoxied the bushing into place so that it didn't rotate, anyone who has any knowledge of glues will realize that the epoxy probably isn't going to hold together forever, especially metal on metal. PTW's undergo the same kinds of impact stresses that a normal AEG does, and vibrations and torque stresses are likely to cause glue to heat, stress and fail over time. If this occurs and the bearing simply rotates in place, it could rotate and impede the rotation of the gear which could cause a sudden failure of the bearing integrity, or break gear teeth. The bearing bushings in all PTW's are designed to rotate and spin in place which helps reduces overall stresses in the gearbox, so gluing them in place is a BIG no-no!
    I'm only responding because my words were used to benefit of an argument that I do not believe in.

    By that logic Brad, then it is an inherent engineering flaw on the PTW5. If the box has been designed to wear down the bearing, then what is stopping it from rotating after the wear has occured? In the picture Brian posted there is clearly a flattened region close to the spur gear. What prevents this flat from rotating into the bearing well as you've described and causing the exact same issues you stated in your novel over the modifications made by Aaron? On top of that...depending on the materials used in the construction of the gear and the bearing flange, there is additional wear just from the contact depending on the force and torque created by the impact each time a tooth strikes the surface of the flange. Which ever metal is softer will be more susceptible (presumably the bearing as it has obviously worn). However, there is no justification that the gear tips themselves haven't worn down, there is no original to compare them too. If the metals the same alloy, thats just as bad if not worse, considering micro fractures will eventually occur.

    At this point, you are making fun of a fellow teammate as well. Stating:
    Quote:
    Thankfully, we'll all have plenty of Scorpion/TW5 jokes to last us well into the future!! Yay!!!
    Thats not cool, we never made fun of you.
    Posted 04-13-2010 at 04:24 PM by Spectre Spectre is offline
    Updated 04-13-2010 at 04:27 PM by Spectre
  7. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    Thanks Paul you explained it exactly as I was going to!

    Whoa, I thought we were all having fun with this. I didn't know you were actually making it personal Darkstar. Oh well.

    Darkstar "I did tell you so", you just confirmed what I was telling by providing the extra information. Another way of saying that, is to say, I spoke first with my observations and you presented hard evidence to prove my observations to be in fact a failure of design on Systema's behalf as I see it from a basic engineering view point. There is no logical reason why you should introduce excess heat and friction to any gear train or drive system. This design of the gears and gearbox do just that. It's really just that simple.

    I really was having fun with this until now. It's too bad really you're not as intelligent as you come off to be by your posts and you can't see that all this time I was just pointing out it's a poor design and should be corrected. Maybe I was expecting too much. See you guys around!
    Posted 04-13-2010 at 05:09 PM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  8. Old
    Darkstar's Avatar
    As as aside, I'm not trying to use your words against you. If you don't believe in the whole argument, then why are you commenting? As I stated before, you pretty much answered your own question yourself. I simply elaborated further to try to explain it to you in more detail. I think I've pretty much said all there is that can logically be said about this topic.

    Quote:
    In the picture Brian posted there is clearly a flattened region close to the spur gear.
    I'm not sure what flat area you're referring to in my pictures. There is no flat part of the bearing at all on the gun I'm working on, and there is probably at least 1-2mm of clearance between the spur gear and the bearing. The bearing is perfectly round with no damage at all, and no damage on the spur gear at all. You're more than welcome to stop by the store and take a look at it. I'm going to post a video to YouTube here in a second of my gearbox as well.

    As far as engineering flaws go, Systema has acknowledged that the gears can touch on TW5 MAX challenge kits in some cases. Is it a wide spread issue? I don't know. What do you want me to say? That all TW5 MAX's are effected by the same problem? Hmmm, I'm not yet willing to say that there is an overall engineering flaw considering there are MANY TW5 MAX SCK's on the market that work just fine and this is the first time I've heard anyone complain about this problem. Again, I'll say that there appears to be an issue with the gun Aaron worked on, but until you can get manufacturer feedback from Systema, pissing and moaning about your frustrations doesn't do anyone any good.

    Final point. Why don't you drop talking to me and actually make the effort to contact Systema?

    Quote:
    At this point, you are making fun of a fellow teammate as well. Stating:

    Quote:
    Thankfully, we'll all have plenty of Scorpion/TW5 jokes to last us well into the future!! Yay!!!
    Thats not cool, we never made fun of you.
    Riiiiiiiight... lol. So what happens to all the Son of Liberty jokes? Dude, we poke fun at other teammates all the time. Don't act like we don't.
    Posted 04-13-2010 at 05:46 PM by Darkstar Darkstar is offline
  9. Old
    Darkstar's Avatar
    Quote:
    It's too bad really you're not as intelligent as you come off to be by your posts and you can't see that all this time I was just pointing out it's a poor design and should be corrected.
    Oh? So now we're attacking our intelligence? Low class Scorpion. Really low class. Who's the one making it personal again?

    I haven't really taken this entire thread as "having fun". My goal has always been to try to help the end-user of this gun. That means I'm going to give the best information and be advice that I can.

    Now, in the spirit of being constructive, I've gone one better for Spectre's benefit, and everyone else following this topic, and shot a video which I hope will further clarify what I have, and what you have.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsuYcQVIWrg

    I think that you'll clearly see there are absolutely no design problems with the gun I currently have in my posession.
    Posted 04-13-2010 at 06:49 PM by Darkstar Darkstar is offline
  10. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    Brad I know your gearbox is working well. I agree with you on that It's easy to tell from the start that it wasn't the same as mine and it would work well due to obvious clearance of gear and bearing.

    I was referring to your intelligence level in respect to the fact that you were commenting on the I told you so part. That's all! You just didn't seem to understand it as I wrote it as per your comment. Maybe you see it now? And it's just another poking of fun as you put it, to me. I'm sure you are very knowledgable with other hobbies or concepts that I know nothing of. I'm only commenting on this specific situation.
    Posted 04-14-2010 at 06:39 AM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
    Updated 04-14-2010 at 06:42 AM by Scorpion
 

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